- Coming up on "IGI," in Kansas, there are more than 160,000 lead service lines supplying water to households which may be contaminated with lead.

A timely discussion on lead pipe water contamination, its health impacts, and the issues surrounding replacing Kansas' aging lead service line infrastructure.

Stay with us.

(bright music) - [Narrator] This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the friends of KTWU.

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to "IGI."

I'm your host, Bob Beatty.

Lead pipe contamination exposure has been brought to the national forefront by recent headlines about the water contamination emergencies in Jackson, Mississippi and Flint, Michigan.

According to a survey by the National Resources Defense Council, Kansas has the third highest number of lead lines per capita.

Lead exposure can cause brain and nervous system damage, is associated with learning, hearing, speech, and behavioral problems, and can stunt growth and development.

Children are especially susceptible to lead exposure.

According to a 2021 American Medical Association study, 65% of Kansas children have elevated levels of lead in their blood, 15 points higher than the national average.

On today's show, we'll examine the issues surrounding Kansas' aging lead service line infrastructure, the health risks poised by lead contamination, and what is being done to remedy the national lead pipe crisis.

Joining us today via Zoom to discuss the issues about lead in our water supply are Dr. Alexandra Middlewood, assistant political science professor for Wichita State University, and Dr. David Slusky, professor of economics at the University of Kansas.

Thank you both for joining us here for "IGI."

And let's get a little bit of history here.

How have people in the US traditionally been exposed to lead?

And we'll start with David Slusky.

- Sure.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's really a pleasure to be here.

The two main exposures are from the air and from the water.

From the water comes from the lead pipes that water travels through.

We've been using lead pipes for water since antiquity.

Even the word for "plumber" comes from the Latin word for lead, for Pb on your periodic table.

With air, we've been putting lead in gasoline for 100 years because it prevents knocking in engines.

We started to phase it out in the 1970s.

We've now phased it out internationally.

But even so, lead still has some uses in race car fuel.

NASCAR phased it out only recently.

And even in some aircraft fuel as well.

- It's showing my age a little bit, but I remember filling up a car with leaded, and unleaded was, you know, was sort of an odd thing.

And David, some of your research has shown that, actually, even though, you know, most lead has been eliminated, that even with, you know, car racing fuel or small airplanes, there's still been some effect on people's health.

Is that right?

- It's others' research.

You know, the best research is the ones you wish you did, but someone else was clever and faster than you were.

But it's others' research looking at variation in distance to living near an airport or in auto racing schedules and when children were in utero and when children were born.

And all of those have shown lead having terrible effects on educational outcomes, on health outcomes, on fertility, on crime.

There's an amazing study in Sweden, as we phased out lead and gasoline, looking at moss lead levels.

Because moss has no roots.

And so it shows you what's in the air.

Connecting that up with every one of the populations' propensity to be convicted of a crime in their lifetime.

- Now, Dr. Middlewood, is this an example of not just American history, but, you know, world history, where industrialization occurs and people are all, you know, excited we can solve one problem with doing something, and then later realize that it was the wrong thing to do, but fixing it is going to be difficult?

- Yeah, so adding lead to gasoline, in particular, really started in the United States with the auto industry in the Flint, Michigan area, actually.

And so while that spread from here to other parts of the world, and it has been a worldwide problem, it did actually start, in that particular instance, here in the United States.

- Yeah.

And so what are the health risks associated with body absorption of lead?

We can continue with you, Dr. Middlewood.

- So in adults, it's been known to show things like kidney damage, brain damage, infertility, cancer, and death.

In children, it's all of those, plus learning behavior, hearing, and speech problems, intellectual disabilities.

It's been linked to damage in the nervous system in developing fetuses.

And it's also important to note here that, while we're talking about children, 65% of children in Kansas have elevated levels of lead in their blood.

So they've already started to see some of these effects right here in our state.

- And Dr. Slusky, you've looked at a lot of other studies.

I read some of what you've written.

And these are some pretty serious health concerns, right?

- Absolutely.

I think Werner Troesken, the late Werner Troesken, who's an economic historian at the University of Pittsburgh, I think the most incredible anecdote was that pharmacists in the early 20th century used to prescribe lead pills to women seeking abortions, given how detrimental lead is to embryonic and fetal development.

And I think that the criminality piece as well, lead really interfered with executive function.

And having, you know, successful executive function is a key part of being a member of civil society.

- And in terms of the specific health problems, both of you have discussed, already mentioned a large number, but these are some health problems that would have some wide impacts on American society.

Alex, you mentioned because they hit children.

What are some of the impacts on the wider American society concerning these specific health impacts from lead, Alex?

- As David mentioned, lead exposure leads to increased crime rates.

We've seen several studies that have shown that.

But also long-term chronic health issues, which puts a strain on an already fragile American healthcare system, particularly as we're still in the middle of a global pandemic.

We also know that lead pipes and paint are the most prevalent in low-income urban areas, which create even more health challenges for poor Kansans, who are much more likely to not have access to healthcare to begin with.

- Just to add to- - And David, do you wanna add?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

- Yeah.

So there's an amazing study that looks at the Armed Forces qualifying test in World War II given to every draft-eligible American and looking at how far someone lived from the in-progress, being-built interstate highways and large motorways as kind of external variation of how much lead you were exposed to and finding drops in the scores you got on the Armed Forces qualifying test.

So we're talking about an entire population that's just a little bit, scoring a little bit lower in their intelligence test than they otherwise would've.

And while each individual, right, you don't know how smart you would've been, overall, for the whole country, this is a drastic aggregate decrease in our intelligence and our productivity.

- And Alex, to your point, this can be especially insidious because there may be a population of people that are already, you know, maybe struggling, or in rural areas and not making the money they need to make.

And then there's health problems with their children, or people are getting sick, and they literally may not even know why.

And then they have to deal with that, along with all the other challenges.

Isn't that right?

- Absolutely.

And a lot of the effects of lead poisoning can mirror effects of other types of illnesses.

And we don't really know right off the bat a lot of the time that this is from lead.

And it really just comes down to testing people's blood, testing people's water, and paint supplies in their houses, et cetera.

But for a lot of people, they don't actually know that lead is the problem and that it's something that they can actually prevent in their own homes.

- Yeah.

A lot of people when they find out that it's their drinking water that is essentially tainted, it's almost like they feel a little bit betrayed, you know, 'cause that's something that people have learned over many years to, you know, to trust certain things.

Hopefully the air, the drinking water, the food you eat.

So, David, how does lead get into somebody's glass of water in their homes?

- Sure.

So the lead in the pipes is relatively stable.

I mean, we'll talk about a little bit the Biden administration's efforts to replace those lead service lines.

But the flareups we see now in Mississippi, previously in Flint, in Newark, in Washington, DC, is when the water itself becomes more corrosive.

And generally that happens when there's some other problem in the water that's being treated.

So when Flint switched back to the water treatment plant that they have locally, there were outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease and other bacterial contaminants in the water.

And the efforts to treat those bacterial contaminants made the water more corrosive, which then leeched more lead out of the pipes.

- I think I read something that said there's actually no safe levels of lead.

Is that correct?

Is there a safe level?

- So let's be specific about what we mean by the denominator.

- Sure.

- In humans, there is now no safe level of lead, though there is a threshold above which remediation is taken.

That level used to be higher.

The CDC actually used to have a higher level of lead they thought was safe.

Like, you know, a certain number of cigarettes per day they used to say were safe, or other things that we don't do anymore.

And that there now is no safe detectable level of lead in a child.

In a water source, there is a different threshold, but there is, you know, ideally the number would be zero, but there is another number that, above which, broader action is taken and below which our limited resources were better spent on other areas that had higher levels.

- I think many people have heard about what happened in Flint, Michigan.

And, you know, the whole show is not about Flint, Michigan, but it's worthwhile discussing it.

And so, Alex, what happened there?

And also, if you could briefly tell us, you know, why it was sort of a disaster in the response as well.

You had a problem, but then, actually, you know, many people watching television saw, "Hey, this is still going on."

It seemed to take a long time for the problem to actually really be addressed, Alex.

- So as many horror stories begin, it began in the name of financial savings.

So the local government in Flint decided to remove the city from Detroit's water supply and build a new pipeline to Lake Huron.

In the meantime, while that pipeline was being built, they switched to using water from the Flint River, but that water was not appropriately treated at the water treatment center.

Because of that, it was corrosive.

It caused lead to leach into the water.

It poisoned thousands of children throughout the city.

They first started to notice these elevated levels of lead in the blood in some hospitals in Flint.

And then the medical professionals at those hospitals started to push for testing.

There are some problems with that testing process.

A lot of the times when testing on water is done, the pipes are flushed first.

So they're let to run for a couple of minutes before those samples are collected.

And so the actual water that they were testing was not the water that had been sitting in people's pipes that they would actually be drinking if they had turned on their faucets and filled a glass of water, for example.

So the testing that was coming back didn't show these really high levels of lead like they would have if they had taken water directly from the faucet, as soon as it was turned on.

There was also some efforts by the local government, by the state government to specifically not address this issue.

There were press conferences where everything was told to the public that it was fine when it really wasn't.

And those medical professionals in Flint, particularly Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha, she really pushed for the government to step in and try to do something about this.

And when they didn't, she found her own resources to test the water and to show that there was really high levels of lead in the water in Flint, Michigan.

- And David, we're gonna get to the infrastructure bill pretty quickly here, but is there anything from Flint that we have to be careful to note here in Kansas?

- Well, I mean, one thing was that the state government had put an unelected city manager into Flint.

Certainly, as a Lawrence resident, I'm quite familiar with the median voter in my city being in a very different place than the median voter in the state.

And so there is a state-city difference here in Michigan that exacerbated a lot of these issues.

- Well, you know, we spent the first part of this program probably going over some things that aren't too pleasant.

It is nice to say that some things are in the works to possibly solve this problem.

And one is the 2022 United States infrastructure bill in which over the next five years, Kansas is slated to get $164 million, anywhere from over 40 billion for the entire country.

So let's listen to President Joe Biden talking about infrastructure and the need for that bill to be passed.

- America used to have the best roads, bridges, and airports on earth.

And now our infrastructure is ranked 13th in the world.

We won't be able to compete for the jobs of the 21st century if we don't fix it.

That's why it was so important to pass the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.

- Yeah!

- And I thank my Republican friends who joined to invest to rebuild America.

The single biggest investment in history was a bipartisan effort.

I want to thank the members of both parties who worked to make it happen.

We're done talking about infrastructure weeks.

We're now talking about an infrastructure decade.

(audience cheers and applauds) And look, it's going to transform America.

We'll create good jobs for millions of Americans modernizing roads, airports, ports, waterways all across America.

And we'll do it to withstand the devastating effects of climate change and promote environmental justice.

We'll build a national network of 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations, begin to replace the poisonous lead pipes so every child, every American, has clean water to drink at home and at school.

- Is this bill as good as it sounds from President Biden?

- Well, I mean, the Brookings Institute report on how much this was gonna cost, I think, was 40 some billion to 60 billion.

The original Biden administration request was about 45 billion.

So this is, I think, only about 15 billion.

And that's a lot better than zero, but it's not 45 billion.

So this is not gonna replace every lead pipe in the country, but it will replace a lot of them, and a lot of them in the most important places to replace them.

- And I'll give the same question to Alex with the caveat that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I believe even though President Biden said it was a bipartisan bill, I believe that most of the Kansas delegation voted against it.

So your comments on this bill.

- That is correct.

The only representative, Sharice Davids, from the Kansas 3rd congressional district, voted yes on this bill.

So while it did pass bipartisanly, it did not have bipartisan support here in our state.

- Well, let's go to an interview with Representative Sheree Davids, who's from the 3rd district in Kansas, but played a key role, actually, in some of the discussions about this bill.

- Here with us is Representative Sharice Davids, currently serving Kansas' 3rd congressional district in Congress.

Representative Davids serves as the vice chair of the committee on transportation and infrastructure.

Representative Davids, welcome to "IGI."

We thank you so much for joining us today.

- Yeah, it's good to be here with you.

- Yes.

I know your schedule is busy.

We won't take too much of your time.

But we know we've talked a lot about the health issues related to some of the aging water lines here around the nation.

We do know that President Biden recently signed in to, he wants to address that aging infrastructure.

Can you tell us how significant of a problem this is for Kansans?

- Yeah, so you're, I mean, you're absolutely right.

This is an issue nationwide, but definitely here in Kansas, it's a big issue.

And part of the issue is that we don't actually have a clear picture right now of how many lead pipes there are.

You know, last year, my office, I released a report examining the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law's impact on our water systems and, you know, our water systems here in the 3rd district.

And one of the major needs that we identified in that report was taking an inventory of lead pipes so that we can actually start the process of replacement on the ones that haven't been replaced before.

And, you know, the estimates are very high.

And Kansas unfortunately has some of the most, the estimates are that we have some of the most lead pipes per capita in the country.

And, you know, this impacts particularly children's health, but it can have serious health impacts.

- Absolutely.

Yes, the health impact we've heard related to their brain development, related to reproductive systems.

I mean, there's just a whole lot of education issues that come into play.

So let's talk a little bit about this Bipartisan Infrastructure Law that was introduced by President Biden.

Can you tell us a little bit about your role in that, and how will this impact our aging lead pipe service lines here in Kansas?

- Yeah, absolutely.

So I was actually really proud to get the chance to work, really, from the very beginning of the negotiations of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.

And I sit on the transportation.

I'm the vice chair of the transportation and infrastructure.

And I think that, you know, getting the chance to work on what was literally the, this is the most significant investment in our nation's infrastructure since President Eisenhower.

And, you know, beyond creating jobs, filling potholes, as great as those things are, we also know that this is gonna have a huge impact on our community's safety, on our climate, and really on the economy overall.

And one of the ways that we are helping to ensure that we have safe drinking water, that, you know, children aren't suffering the impacts of lead pipes is by including, we included $15 billion in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill to be able to replace lead pipes and really get the inventory where it's needed.

And that's happening here in Kansas right now.

- That is great.

And how can Kansas municipalities request the funding for this and to be able to address their systems?

- Yeah, that's a great question.

You know, I just had the chance to go out to, I was out in Olathe, and we had a roundtable with folks who are doing this work.

Municipalities, the counties.

The Kansas Department of Health and Environment was there.

And, you know, the municipalities and the counties are able to submit for that funding and definitely work closely with the KDHE, or Kansas Department of Health and Environment, and the Kansas Water Bureau to get the funds to the places that they need to be.

And I mean, I got the chance to visit one of the homes in Olathe where they've already started the lead pipe replacement project.

And it was really cool to see that, you know, it literally took them one day.

They came out, they took the old pipe out, they put the new pipe in, and got everything taken care of in a day.

And I think it would be good for folks to, you know, if you're part of a municipality or part of a community that's trying to figure out how to make use of the funding that came out of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, you can reach out to the KDHE.

You can reach out to the Kansas Water Bureau.

They've got some really great resources.

There's a collaborative effort going on that you can get to through the KDHE website.

And then, also, reach out.

My office is here to help when it comes to the state and local officials trying to make use of the federal funding that we got passed into law.

So reach out to my office, too.

- That is wonderful.

And Representative Davids, we thank you so much for everything you're doing to help replace this water infrastructure throughout the entire country.

It's gonna be a positive for our kids and our adults as we move forward into the future.

But we thank you very much- - We're hopeful.

- for joining us today.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Yeah, Representative Davids went through a lot there.

David, what would you like to highlight from what she said or expand upon?

- Not just federal, state, and local issue, but a federal, state, local, private issue.

And I think it's wonderful that her office is willing to help make some of those connections and make that a more efficient process and serve as a go-between to ensure that this funding gets spent and gets spent efficiently.

- That's an interesting comment you made because I read one article that said there's a little bit of confusion, or I won't say acrimony, between some utilities that have said, "Oh yeah, we'll fix the pipes, or we'll redo the pipes up to the curb."

And then the homeowner is supposed to then deal with the rest.

And the article I read said it's still a bit unclear about who's in charge of the pipes going to the house.

- So remember, I'm a healthcare economist also in my research.

And so this kind of mess happens all the time.

And I think the more you take the household out, right, what I would like to see is a system where the municipality or the utility does the whole replacement, and then sends whatever part of the bill that's not on their books to somebody else.

We have this in Laurence right now with my sidewalk.

The city came and said, "You can pick your own contractor by this date.

And if you don't, we're gonna pick one for you."

And both of those ensure that this gets done and gets done efficiently.

- That's really interesting.

Alex, your comments.

- Yeah.

I wanna highlight something that David said earlier.

While this bill is better than nothing, it certainly is not as much as we could have hoped for.

And something that he just highlighted is that there is this tension on who's going to be responsible for pipes and fixtures within people's homes.

Part of the reason that lead pipes are so abundant here in Kansas is because for a long time, lead was mined right here in Kansas, making it an affordable and abundant option for pipes, long before we knew it was unsafe.

And so, in particular, older homes are going to have possibly lead pipes within the homes, lead fixtures, and that's not picked up when water is tested, for example, at the treatment plant, or when pipes are replaced throughout the public system, but not within individual homes.

When this is left to individual homeowners to discover and replace, most people don't know that their pipes could be problematic, and they certainly can't afford to replace them, even if they did know that there was a problem.

And so it's really going to be important that this issue's figured out, and there's going to be someone responsible for also testing and replacing those pipes within individual homes that's not just the homeowner if we actually want to see this problem be fixed.

- Yeah, I wanna thank both of you so much.

Your expertise is invaluable.

And I think, obviously, this is a very important issue 'cause that's all the time we have for this episode of "IGI."

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you would like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For "IGI," I'm Bob Beatty.

Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) - This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the friends of KTWU.