> >> FROM GLOBAL CONFLICTS TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND THE GROWING THREAT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE >> IT IS EASY TO FEEL OVERWHELMED BY THE UNCERTAIN TIMES WE ARE LIVING IN.

BUT HOW CAN WE BEST NAVIGATE IT ALL?

MAYA IS A COGNITIVE SCIENTIST AND FORMER SENIOR ADVISER IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

HER NEW BOOK THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE OFFERS SOME GUIDANCE ON WAYS TO DEAL WITH THE UNEXPECTED AS WE DISCUSSES WITH HARI SVREENIVASAN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A BOOK OUT CALLED THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE.

YOU HAVE HAD A SUCCESSFUL PODCAST FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS TO WRITE THIS BOOK ABOUT CHANGE?

>> I THINK IT IS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I'M TERRIBLE AT NAVIGATING THE UNEXPECTED CHANGES IN LIFE.

AND I FIND IT REALLY SCARY AND REALLY DESTABILIZING.

FOR ONE, I DON'T LOVE UNCERTAINTY.

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT MOST OF US, OUR BRAINS ARE NOT WIRED TO ENJOY UNCERTAINTY.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE STUDIES SHOWS WE ARE MORE STRESSED WHEN WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE A 50% CHANCE OF RECEIVING AN ELECTRIC SHOCK THAN WHEN WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE A 100% CHANCE.

SO, WE WOULD RATHER BE CERTAIN THAT A NEGATIVE THING IS GOING TO HAPPEN THAN HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH ANY UNCERTAINTY.

AND OF COURSE, A BIG UNEXPECTED CHANGE IN OUR LIVES IS ACCOMPANIED BY SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY.

AND THERE IS THE LOSS OF IDENTITY AND MANY OTHER VERY DISCOMEFITTING ELEMENTS.

HOW DO WE DO CHANGE BETTER?

IT WILL COME FOR ALL OF US WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.

AS A COGNITIVE SCIENTIST I WANT TO PUT ON THAT HAT AND EXPLORE THIS SPACE FURTHER.

>> SO IS THIS THE FULL GAMUT OF CHANGES?

WHETHER IT IS A NEW JOB?

A NEW CITY?

A DIVORCE?

WHAT KINDS OF CHANGES?

>> THE KIND I'M MOST INTERESTED IN IS ONE THAT IS WILDLY UNEXPECTED.

THE MOMENTS IN LIFE IN WHICH THE ANVIL FALLS FROM THE CLEAR BLUE SKY AND WE FEEL SO UNPREPARED AND UNCERTAIN ABOUT HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

IT IS SO INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK IN THESE TOUGH MOMENTS IN MY LIFE, I HEARD THIS MANTRA THAT WHILE WE CAN'T CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS TO US, WE CAN CONTROL OUR REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENS.

AND IT IS MEANT TO BE AN EMPOWERING MANTRA ROOTED IN ANCIENT WISDOM.

IN THOSE MOMENTS HONESTLY, IT IS REALLY FELT FOLLOW.

IT HAS RUN HOLLOW BECAUSE I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY KNOWN HOW TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT I RESPOND.

IT'S NOT LIKE THERE IS A SWITCH IN MY BRAIN I CAN FLIP ONTO BE MORE PEACEFUL AND HOPEFUL ABOUT THE FUTURE.

MY GOAL IN WRITING" THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE" WAS TO GIVE PEOPLE A MANUAL.

TO PAIR POWERFUL STORIES OF CHANGE WITH THE SCIENCE OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR TO HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN ACTUALLY THINK AND FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THESE MOMENTS OF DISRUPTION IN LIFE.

>> ONE QUOTE IS WHAT IF WE SAW THE HARDEST MOMENTS IN OUR LIVES AS A CHANCE TO REIMAGINE OURSELVES RATHER THAN SOMETHING TO JUST ENDURE.

HOW DO WE TAKE THAT THING THAT FEELS LIKE THIS HEAVY ANVIL AND TURN IT INTO A POTENTIAL FOR REVELATION?

>> SO WHEN A NEGATIVE THING HAPPENS IN OUR LIVES IT CAN FEEL LIKE A PERSONAL APOCALYPSE.

LIKE THE WORLD THAT WE KNEW AND GREW SO COMFORTABLE WITH IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US.

AND ONE OF THE FASCINATING THINGS THAT I DISCOVERED IN DOING RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK IS APOCALYPSE COMES FROM THE GREEK WORD APOCALYPSES.

CHANGE CAN OFFEND US BUT IT CAN ALSO REVEAL THINGS TO US.

IN THESE MOMENTS WHERE WE ARE THRUST INTO A NEW REALITY, THE DEMANDS AND STRESSES OF OUR NEW SITUATION CAN REVEAL THING TO US ABOUT WHO WE ARE THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY HIDDEN FROM VIEW.

SO THINGS LIKE OUR ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS ABOUT THE WORLD AND OURSELVES.

NEW CAPABILITIES.

NEW WAYS OF SEEING THE WORLD.

AND, I FELT VERY HEARTENED THAT WE CAN AT LEAST HAVE THIS TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

I WOULD SAY BY AND LARGE, THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED ARE NOT HAPPY THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH THE CHANGE THEY WENT THROUGH.

BUT WHAT THEY WERE REALLY GRATEFUL FOR WAS WHO THEY BECAME AS A RESULT OF THE CHANGE THEY WENT THROUGH.

THEY WERE GRATEFUL FOR THE NEWFOUND CONFIDENCE OR FREEDOM THEY TAPPED INTO.

THE RENEWED RELATIONSHIP THEY HAD WITH THEIR FAMILY.

THE NEW POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY ENVISIONED FOR THEIR FUTURE.

ALL OF THAT WAS AN UNEXPECTED GIFT THAT CAME FROM THE HARDEST MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVE S.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT A WOMAN WHO SUFFERS A STROKE.

SHE IS LOCKED INTO HER BODY.

ALL SHE CAN CONTROL IS HER ABILITY TO BLINK.

IN THAT CHAPTER, YOU WRITE OUR ATTACHMENT TO A SPECIFIC IDENTITY CAN STAND IN THE WAY OF ACCEPTING OUR NEW REALITY.

TELL US ABOUT THIS WOMAN AND HOW SHE MANAGED TO DEAL WITH THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHANGE WE COULD EVER IMAGINE?

>> YEAH.

IT WAS SUCH A HARROWING CHANGE AND ONE THING I LEARNED OVER THE YEARS IS A PRIMARY REASON CHANGE CAN FEEL SO SCARY AND SO INTIMIDATING AND SO GRIEF FILLED, IT CAN CHALLENGE OUR FUNDAMENTAL SENSE OF SELF.

OUR SELF IDENTITY.

FOR OLIVIA, THE WOMAN IN THE BOOK WHO HAS A MASSIVE BRAIN STEM STROKE IN HER EARLY 20s , SHE IS LEFT WITH LOCK IN SYNDROME.

AS YOU MENTIONED WHEN YOU HAVE LOCKED IN SYNDROME, YOU CANNOT VOLUNTARILY MOVE ANY OF THE MUSCLES IN YOUR BODY EXCEPT FOR THE MUSCLES CONTROLLING YOUR EYES.

SO BLINKS IS YOUR ONLY PORTAL FOR COMMUNICATING WITH THE WORLD AROUND YOU.

ONE THING I WAS SO INTENT ON WAS CAPTURING EXTRAORDINARY STORIES BUT ONES THAT ALSO HAD UNIVERSAL LESSONS.

VERY RELATABLE LESSONS SO IT TURNS OUT THAT ONE OF OLIVIA'S BIGGEST BARRIERS IS SHE WAS BY NATURE A PEOPLE PLEASER, SHE WANTED TO WIN THE APPROVAL OF OTHERS IN HER LIFE.

LOCKED IN LIMITED HER ABILITY TO CURATE AN IMAGE OF HERSELF TO BE THE KIND OF PERSON SHE THOUGHT WOULD BE PALATABLE TO THOSE AROUND HER.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF SOMEONE HAVING TO RECKON WITH REALLY CONFRONTING THEIR TRUE SELF.

BECAUSE SHE HAD NO OTHER OPTION.

AND LEARNING TO ACTUALLY EMBRACE THAT SELF AND LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND ACCEPT HERSELF FULLY.

WHAT I FOUND SO WONDERFUL ABOUT HER STORY IS IT SHOWS THAT OUR SENSE OF SELF IDENTITY IS TRULY MALLEABLE.

I HAD A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS A TEENAGER IN WHICH I HAD BEEN AN ASPINING CONCERT VIOLINIST.

I STUDIED UNDER ITZAK PERLMAN AND AN INJURY ENDED THOSE DREAMS OVERNIGHT.

I FELT A PROFOUND LOSS OF IDENTITY.

I DIDN'T REALIZE UNTIL I LOST THE VIOLIN HOW MUCH IT HAD COME TO DEFINE ME.

LEARNING ABOUT OLIVIA'S EXPERIENCE OF CHANGE WHICH IS SO MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN ANYTHING I WENT THROUGH WAS SO PRODUCTIVE FOR ME.

I LEARNED THAT IT CAN BE PRECARIOUS TO ANCHOR OUR IDENTITIES TOO MUCH TO THESE PRECARIOUS SOURCES, IN MY CASE, TO WHAT I DID.

BECAUSE LIFE CAN TAKE AWAY YOUR WHAT IN A MOMENT.

SO I LEARNED THAT ACTUALLY ONE LESSON FOR ALL OF US IS TO INSTEAD ANCHOR OUR IDENTITY TO WHY WE DO THE THINGS WE DO.

AND WHEN YOU IDENTIFY WHAT YOUR WHY IS, WHETHER IT IS A COMMITMENT TO SERVICE OR HAVING A CREATIVE OUTLET OR IMPROVING A SKILL, THAT WHY WILL BE A STABLE FORCE THAT SERVES AS A COMPASS TO GUIDE YOU TOWARD YOUR NEXT STEPS.

>> YOU WRITE ALSO ABOUT DENIAL IN A WAY I HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.

I WONDER IF IN THESE MOMENTS OF CHANGE, ARE WE SORT OF MOURNING A LOSS OF A PAST?

WHY ARE WE IN DENIAL OF WHAT SEEMS OBVIOUS TO US WHEN IT HITS US?

>> WE CAN THINK OF DENIAL AS A PSYCHOLOGICAL IMMUNE RESPONSE.

RESEARCHERS HAVE SAID THAT DENIAL IS NATURE'S WAY OF LETTING IN ONLY AS MUCH AS WE CAN HANDLE.

AND WHAT IS SO INTERESTING IS THAT RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT IN THE SHORT TERM, DENIAL IS NOT ACTUALLY PROBLEMATIC.

IT CAN BE QUITE ADAPTIVE.

IT GIVES US A BOOST OF RESILIENCE AND MUCH NEEDED OPTIMISM AND ALLOWS TO BELIEVE THAT MAYBE THERE IS A MORE PROMISING PATH FORWARD, DENIAL IN THE LONGER TERM IS PROBLEMATIC BUT I THINK WE CAN BE VERY INTOLERANT WHEN WE SENSE WE OR OTHERS ARE IN DENIAL IN THE ACUTE SESSIONS OF GRIEF.

IT MIGHT BE A NECESSARY STAGE.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHANGES WE ARE COLLECTIVELY FACING RIGHT NOW.

THAT I THINK AT TIMES PEOPLE WANT TO JUST CHECK OUT.

I CAN'T CONTROL ANY OF THIS OR THEY GET INTO THIS DOOM LOOP AND RUMINATE AND HAVE NEGATIVE THOUGHTS OVER AND OVER.

HOW DO WE BREAK OUT OF THAT CYCLE?

>> THE FIRST THING I WILL SAY IS WHEN A BIG CHANGE HAPPENS TO US, IT CAN ALSO LEAD TO LASTING CHANGE WITHIN US.

WE FALL PREY TO AN ILLUSION CALLED THE END OF HISTORY ILLUSION.

AND WHAT THIS SAYS IS THAT WHILE WE FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE WE HAVE CHANGED CONSIDERABLY IN THE PAST, WE FAILED TO APPRECIATE THAT WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE MOVING FORWARD.

SO RESEARCHERS SAY THAT WE FALSELY BELIEVE THAT THE PRESENT MOMENT REPRESENTS THIS WATERSHED MOMENT IN TIME.

IN WHICH WE BECOME THE PERSON WE WILL BE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.

BUT OF COURSE THAT IS NOT TRUE.

WE ARE ALWAYS CHANGING.

AND, A BIG CHANGE CAN ACTUALLY ACCELERATE THESE INTERNAL TRANSFORMATIONS.

IF YOU ARE FEELING DAUNTED AT THE ONSET OF A CHANGE, ABOUT YOUR JOB AND THE ROLE OF AI WHETHER YOU ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT OTHER CHANGE THAT MIGHT HAPPEN WITHIN YOUR FAMILY.

JUST REMEMBER THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF HOPE THERE BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT YOU ARE RIGHT NOW WILL NOT BE THE PERSON WHO IS ACTUALLY NAVIGATING THE FULL EXPERIENCE.

THAT PERSON WILL BE DIFFERENT, ARMED WITH NEW VALUES AND CAPABLES AND PERSPECTIVES AND NEW WAYS OF TACKLING THE CHALLENGE.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT YOU CAN USE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT EFFECTIVE ANTIRUMINATION STRATEGIES.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE IS FALLED AFFECT LABELING.

WHEN YOU GIVE A LABEL TO THE NEGATIVE EMOTION YOU ARE FEELING.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF CHANGE, YOU MIGHT FEEL YOUR BRAIN IS JUST SPIRALING IN NEGATIVITY.

BUT ACTUALLY, I THINK IDENTIFYING WHAT YOU ARE FEELING SO MAYBE IT IS FRUSTRATION, MAYBE IT IS ANGER, GRIEF.

THAT CAN HELP YOU SHIFT YOUR FOCUS AWAY FROM BEING THE EMOTION.

TO WHERE IT IS SIMPLY HAVING THE EMOTION.

IF YOU HAVE AN EMOTION, IT READS PSYCHOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU MENTION IS THE POWER OF AWE.

AND I KNOW WE CAN'T ALL SORT OF GO AND STAND ON THE EDGE OF THE GRAND CANYON EVERY DAY.

BUT WHAT ARE WAYS WE CAN INJECT AWE INTO OUR LIVES THAT MIGHT HELP BREAK THE NEGATIVE DOOM LOOP CYCLES?

>> AWE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE ANTIRUMINATION STRATEGIES.

IT IS REALLY AVAILABLE TO ALL OF US.

NATURALLY, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT AWE, WE THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE MUSIC AND ART.

BUT THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF AWE THAT I THINK IS UNDERRECOGNIZED.

THAT IS MORAL BEAUTY.

WHEN WE ACTUALLY JUST WITNESS OTHER PEOPLE'S EXTRAORDINARY ACTIONS OR BEHAVIORS.

KINDNESS OR SELF-SACRIFICE OR COURAGE.

THAT IS TRULY EVERYWHERE.

IT MIGHT BE AT THE SUPERMARKET.

IF YOU WATCH SOMEONE BE KIND TO AN ELDERLY SHOPPER.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT AWE IS WHEN WE ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF SOMETHING VAST, THAT TRANSCENDS OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD, THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF AWE.

IT DOES CHANGE OUR BRAINS.

IT WILL DAMPEN THE ACTIVITY IN THE DEFAULT MODE NETWORK.

IN PARTS OF OUR BRAINS ASSOCIATED WITH SELF IMMERSION.

IT ALLOWS US TO STEP OUT OF OUR WANTS AND NEEDS AND ANXIETIES AND SEE OURSELVES AS PART OF A LARGER WHOLE AND SEE OUR PROBLEMS WITH A BIT MORE DISTANCE AND A GREATER SENSE OF WONDER AND POSSIBILITY.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL NAMED REGINALD DWAYNE BETTS.

SENTENCED TO NINE YEARS IN PRISON FOR AN ARMED CARJACKING.

HE SAID WITH ONE GUILTY PLEA, THE LIST OF POSSIBILITIES HAS BEEN REDUCED TO NO POSSIBILITIES.

AND SINCE LEAVING PRISON, HE HAS WON SEVERAL AWARDS FOR HIS POETRY, GONE TO LAW SCHOOL.

A PRISON REFORM ADVOCATE.

HOW DID HE CREATE THESE ALTERNATE POSSIBILITIES FOR WHO HE COULD BE?

>> I THINK WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THAT FEELING WE HAVE WHEN LIFE MAKES OTHER PLANS FOR US.

AND, WE SEE ALL OF THESE DOORS CLOSING AROUND US.

WHAT RESEARCH SHOWS IS THAT WHEN WE TRY TO PICK UP THE PIECES AND REIMAGINE WHO WE CAN BE IN OUR NEW CIRCUMSTANCES, OUR IMAGINATIONS CAN REALLY RESTRICT US.

THAT IS BECAUSE WE CAN CARRY UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE KINDS OF FUTURES THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO SOMEONE WHO IS FACING OUR NEW SITUATION.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST LOST THEIR JOB OR WHO IS A FULL TIME CARE GIVER OR WHO IS NAVIGATING AN ILLNESS OR WHO LIKE DWAYNE IS INCARCERATED.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE STRATEGIES FOR CRACKING OPEN OUR IMAGINATION, FOR SEEING THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY MORE EXPANSIVE POSSIBILITIES FOR US IS MORAL ELEVATION.

SO WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MORAL BEAUTY AS A FORM OF LAW.

WHAT IS MORAL ELEVATION?

IT IS THAT WARM FUZZY FEELING WE GET IN OUR CHEST WHEN WE WITNESS SOMEONE ELSE'S EXTRAORDINARY BEHAVIORS.

WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN WE EXPERIENCE SOMEONE ELSE DEFYING OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOWN US THE BEST OF HUMANITY.

IT WAS AN ENCOUNTER WITH A FELLOW PRISONER.

A GUY WHO SHOWS SUCH DEEP CARE AND KINDNESS.

INSPIRED DWAYNE TO REALIZE, HE COULD USE HIS VOICE TO ACTUALLY PROTECT THE YOUNG MEN IN PRISON.

AND HE ENDED UP DECIDING TO BECOME A POET.

TO USE WORDS TO DIGNIFY THE EXPERIENCE OF MEN OF COLOR WITHIN THE PRISON SYSTEM.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED HE HAS JUST HAD INCREDIBLE PATH AND SO MUCH SUCCESS.

AND I JUST LOVE THAT IT WAS A MOMENT OF MORAL ELEVATION THAT LED HIM TO THIS POINT.

>> FIRST ON YOUR PODCAST.

NOW IN THE BOOK.

YOUR OWN JOURNEY WITH MISCARRIAGE AND SURROGACY.

AND YOU WRITE I WAS GOING TO BE A VIOLINIST, THEN I WAS GOING TO BE A MOTHER, NOW I FIND MYSELF CONCEIVING OF A FUTURE IN WHICH I AM NEITHER.

UNEXPECTEDLY, I'M MORE HOPEFUL THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN.

HOW DID YOU GET TO THIS PLACE OF HOPEFULNESS?

>> LONG STORY SHORT, MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO START A FAMILY FOR AT THIS POINT ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AND I STILL REMEMBER THE NIGHT WE FOUND OUT THAT OUR SURROGATE HAD MISCARRIED FOR A SECOND TIME AND WE HAD LOST IDENTICAL TWIN GIRLS.

AND I WAS JUST DEVASTATED, HARI, BECAUSE THE DAY HAD BEEN A TOTAL EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER, WE HAD SEEN HEALTHY BEATING HEARTS IN THE AFTERNOON.

AND THEN WE GET GREETED WITH THIS TRAGIC NEWS THAT THE PREGNANCY WAS NOT GOING TO WORK.

AND I REMEMBER JUST BEING UNDER THE COVERS JUST FEELING REALLY MISERABLE AND ALL THE COLORFROM MY FUTURE HAD BEEN DRAINED AND TURNED TO GRAY SCALE.

ONE OF THE EARLIEST DREAMS I EVER HAD WAS TO BECOME A MOM.

I REMEMBER MY HUSBAND JIMMY CAME INTO THE ROOM AND HE SAID MAYA, LET'S DO A QUICK GRATITUDE EXERCISE.

AND LET ME TELL YOU IN THAT MOMENT, I WAS NOT HAVING IT.

I SAID JIMNY, YOU GO TO YOUR TOXICS POSITIVITY THING IN THE CORNER.

WHAT HE WAS HAVING WAS CALLED BY PSYCHOLOGISTS A SELF- AFFIRMATION EXERCISE, THIS IS WHEN YOU LIST ALL THE THINGS THAT BRING YOU MEANING IN YOUR LIFE.

THAT ARE NOT THREATENED BY THE CHANGE YOU ARE GOING THROUGH.

I JUST STARTED TO RATTLE OFF SOME ITEMS.

FIRST, I'M GRATEFUL FOR YOU.

AND GRATEFUL TO BE AN AUNT TO MY NIECES AND NEPHEWS AND THAT I GET TO GO INTO MY LITTLE CLOSET IN MY APARTMENT AND RECORD MY PODCAST WHERE I GET TO HEAR EXTRAORDINARY STORIES OF PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

AS I WAS DOING THIS EXERCISE, I FELT LIKE SOMETHING MAGICAL HAPPENED WHICH WAS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YEARS, I ZOOMED OUT ON MY LIFE.

I LET GO OF THE TUNNEL VISION I DEVELOPED.

WHEN I WAS SO FOCUSED ON BEING A MOM.

I SAW MY LIFE WAS SO RICH AND MULTIDIMENSIONAL.

THERE WERE SO MANY IDENTITIES I FOUND SO MUCH MEANING AND VALUE IN.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO THIS QUICK EXERCISE, TAKE FIVE MINUTES TO WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS THAT BRING YOUR LIFE MEANING AND IT WILL JUST HELP YOU TO SEE YOUR LIFE AS A WHOLE.

TO NOT FEEL THAT EVERY FIBER OF YOUR BEING ISN'T BEING THREATENED.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE.

THE PODCAST IS CALLED A SLIGHT CHANGE OF PLANS.

MAYA, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME, HARI.

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