>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> TODAY, WE MUST BE JUST AS DETERMINED AND STRONG AS WE WERE WHEN THE INVASION BEGAN.

>> FOUR YEARS OF FULL SCALE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AT THIS GRIM MILESTONE, I ASK JOURNALIST NATALIA HOW ORDINARY UKRAINIANS ARE FARING.

> >> PLUS THE STATE OF THE BATTLEFIELD WITH MILITARY ANALYST MICHAEL KAUFMAN.

AND.

> >> ON THE FRONT LINE OF CONFLICTS.

ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

>> ARMED ONLY WITH A CAMERA.

THE STORY OF JOURNALIST AND FILM MAKER BRENT RENEAU, THE FIRST AMERICAN KILLED WHILE REPORTING IN UKRAINE.

I SPEAK TO FELLOW JOURNALIST JUAN ARREDONDO AND CRAIG WHO DIRECTED THE DOCUMENTARY.

> >> AND COGNITIVE SCIENTIST MAYA TALKS TO US ABOUT HER BOOK, THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE.

ABOUT NAVIGATEING THE UPHEAVAL OF LIFE.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

A MOMENT OF SILENCE IN KYIV TODAY AS UKRAINIANS MARK A GRIM MILESTONE.

FOUR YEARS OF WAR.

FOUR YEARS SINCE RUSSIA LAUNCHED ITS FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

FOUR YEARS OF ENDURANCE AND LOSS WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS KILLED AND MANY MORE WOUNDED.

NOW PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO CONVINCE HIS ALLIES TO STICK WITH HIS COUNTRY.

>> RUSSIANS MUST LEARN THAT EUROPE IS A UNION OF INDEPENDENT NATIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TOLERATE HUMILIATION AND WILL NOT ACCEPT VIOLENCE.

PLEASE CONTINUE TO DEFEND THE EUROPEAN WAY OF LIFE.

PLEASE SUPPORT UKRAINE.

>> TODAY EUROPEAN LEADERS WERE IN KYIV SHOWING SUPPORT.

BUT THE U. S. SENT NO SENIOR OFFICIAL.

MEANTIME, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN SAID IN AN ADDRESS ON STATE TV TODAY THAT UKRAINE AND THE WEST WILL REGRET THEIR EFFORTS TO DEFEAT RUSSIA.

AS THIS WAR ENTERS ITS FIFTH YEAR, WE'LL LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE BATTLEFIELD.

BUT FIRST, HOW ARE ORDINARY UKRAINIANS FARING?

JOURNALIST NATALIA JOINS THE SHOW FROM KYIV WHERE SHE HAS BEEN ASKING PEOPLE HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THE WAR FOUR YEARS ON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M SORRY THAT IT HAPPENS TO OCCUR AS WE ARE MARKING SUCH A HEARTBREAKING ANNIVERSARY AND MILESTONE HERE.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS SAYING UKRAINIANS ARE NOT BROKEN AND IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE AND ADMIRABLE THAT THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING BUT YOU HAVE SPOKEN WITH SO MANY BROKEN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE SEEN SO MANY BROKEN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY FIRSTHAND.

IN FACT, YOU NOTED THAT VICTOR FRANKL'S MAN SEARCHING FOR MEANING, WRITTEN IN THE 1940s IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP, IS NOW A BEST SELLER WITHIN UKRAINIAN TRENCHES.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE PSYCHE OF UKRAINIANS TODAY, ESPECIALLY UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS?

>> I THINK IT IS DIFFERENT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WE NEED TO STOP THIS WAR OR THE INVASION.

BECAUSE IF YOU JUST DO NOTHING INSTEAD OF STOPPING THE INVASION, WE WOULD END UP IN THE OCCUPATION AND I REPORTED ABOUT THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

AND THE HORRIFIC SITUATION WHICH IS THERE WHERE PEOPLE ARE UNDER THE HUGE REPRESSIONS.

WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY MOBILIZE TO THE RUSSIAN ARMY AFTER THE FOUL YEAR OF THE FULL SCALE INVASION AND I REMIND THERE ARE 12 YEARS SINCE THE INVASION.

SO THE CRIMEA, THE PEOPLE IN THE EASTERN UKRAINE ARE ALSO KIND OF FORCED TO FIGHT IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY WHICH IS TRAGIC.

HERE WE TAKE THE WAR AS HARD LABOR.

SO OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE ARE TIRED BUT WHAT I BELIEVE THE SOLDIERS, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME WHERE I COULD BE WITH THEM IN THE TRENCHES.

THEY ARE LEARNING HOW TO FIGHT COAST OFFICIAL WAR.

IT IS MEANING WE NEED TO HAVE TECHNOLOGY TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

THERE ARE STILL LOSSES BUT IT REQUIRES LABOR.

IT REQUIRES A LOT OF PEOPLE BEING MOBILIZED AND THE WHOLE SOCIETY BEING STILL HELPING EACH OTHER.

THERE ARE REFUGEES AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

BUT THERE ARE STILL TOO MANY.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

THERE ARE TOO MANY OF US WHO ARE STILL PRETTY RESILIENT.

HARDENED AND I ALSO SAY THAT UKRAINE IS IN THE STRONGEST POSITION.

IF YOU SPEAK ABOUT THE MILITARY CAPACITY AT THIS MOMENT.

>> YEAH.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE WILL HEAR MORE OF FROM OUR NEXT GUEST, MICHAEL KAUFMAN WHO AGREES WITH YOU ON THAT POINT ABOUT UKRAINE ACTUALLY HAVING A STRONGER YEAR ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN 2025 THAN THEY DID THE YEAR PRIOR TO THAT.

BUT FOR UKRAINIANS WE HAVE LONG SAID THIS IS AN EXISTENTIAL WAR.

IT IS NOT A WAR OF NECESSITY FOR ORDINARY RUSSIANS BUT IT IS FOR UKRAINIANS.

JUST GIVEN THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT HAS HELPED KEEP THE COUNTRY, KEEP UKRAINIANS GOING FORWARD AND CONTINUING THE FIGHT AS POLL AFTER POLL SHOWS THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY IS STILL NOT READY FOR PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO GIVE INTO MOST OF PRESIDENT PUTIN'S DEMANDS.

>> FIRST OF ALL WITH THE NEGOTIATIONS HAPPENING, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY THE PROBLEM THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE TEMPTED BY ANY TYPE OF WEAKNESS.

SO AS LONG AS THE UKRAINIANS ARE PUSHED INTO ANY CONCESSIONS, THE RUSSIANS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WEAKNESS.

THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT NEGOTIATION STRATEGY.

IT WAS ALSO THE HARDEST WINTER AND I THINK IT IS A BIT PARADOXICAL AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SHOULD UNDERSTAND IT WAS THE YEAR OF THE NEGOTIATIONS BUT IT WAS THE HARDEST FOR THE PEOPLE WITH THE HIGHEST CIVILIAN CASUALTIES BECAUSE OF THE INTENSIFIED ATTACKS ON THE CIVILIANS.

ON CITIES LIKE KYIV.

DESTROYING THE UKRAINIAN POWER GRID.

UKRAINE FOUND SOME OF THE SOLUTION, BUT IT IS DEVASTATING AND DIFFICULT.

I WILL GIVE A QUOTE OF A SOLDIER I MET.

DURING OF THE TALKS SOMEWHERE, I DIDN'T FEEL HONESTLY SO OPEN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE U. S. , BUT HE SAID LIKE, IT IS A BIT A CERTAIN SITUATION WHERE YOUR FRIEND IS SICK.

YOU KNOW.

ILL.

AND YOU HAVE A DRUG, BUT YOU DON'T GIVE THIS SO OF COURSE IT IS DISAPPOINTING BUT IT IS STILL LIKE WE ARE FIGHTING THIS ILLNESS, FIGHTING THIS WAR AS ILLNESS AND I DO THINK THAT THE PEOPLE WHO STILL HAVE RESERVE, THE BIGGEST DISCUSSIONS, HOW WE SHARE THIS BURDEN.

SO IT IS FAIR THERE WOULD BE IRRITATION AMONG THE SOLDIERS.

PEOPLE WHO MAYBE DID A LOT IN THE FIRST YEARS OF WAR THAT WOULD BE THE NEW ONES TO COME TO WORK IN THE MILL TECH AND SERVE IN THE FRONT.

SO WE DO NOT SEE THE ENDING VERY CLOSE.

YOU NEED TO DEVELOP THE QUALITIES, AND SHARE THE BURDEN OF THE SUFFERING MORE OR LESS IN A FAIR WAY.

>> YEAH.

AND AS PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CONTINUING TO PUSH AND PUT MORE PRESSURE SPECIFICALLY ON UKRAINE FOR A FAST SETTLEMENT, WE KNOW THAT HUNGARY AND SLOVAKIA ARE BLOCKING THE EU FROM BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN ADDITIONAL AID THOUGH THE MAJORITY OF THE BLOCK DOES SUPPORT PROVIDING THAT AID.

AND YOU WRITE SOMETHING THAT IS VERY STRIKING.

YOU SAY THE CLEAR IT HAS BECOME THAT UKRAINIANS WITH ONLY RELY ON OURSELVES, THE LESS ANXIOUS THE NATIONAL MOOD HAS SEEMED.

I FOUND THAT QUITE STRIKING WHEN WE GO BACK TO SOME OF THE OTHER STATISTICS YOU HAVE MENTIONED WHICH ARE QUITE GRIM.

THE UNITED NATIONS REPORTS 2025 WAS THE DEADLIEST YEAR FOR CIVILIANS.

BIRTHRATES HAVE COLLAPSED.

UKRAINE IS A NATION OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS.

THIS IS NOW GONE FROM AN EMERGENCY TO A REALITY IN UKRAINE.

HOW HAS THAT CHANGED THE COUNTRY?

>> I DO STILL THINK WE NEED TO GIVE THE CREDIT FOR THE UKRAINIAN SOCIETY TO MORE OR LESS KEEPING LIFE NORMAL.

YOU SEE PART OF THE LIFE IS NORMAL.

PEOPLE LIVE IN KHARKIV AND TOWNS CLOSE TO THE FRONT LINE.

BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS STILL A BATTLE UNDER THE OCCUPATION.

THE WHOLE POINT IS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE THE EFFECT OF THE WAR LESS DEVASTATING.

SO INDEED, IT IS EXTREMELY SAD HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED BUT ALSO THOSE CASUALTIES.

I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THEM.

BUT IF YOU ARE SPEAKING ABOUT 16,000 CIVILIANS.

WE KNEW THERE WOULD BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

POSSIBLY MILLIONS SO THE UKRAINIAN REALITY IS REALLY TO MAKE THE LIFE LIVABLE.

I SHOULD GIVE CREDIT FOR THE EUROPEAN PARTNERS.

WE HAVE A NUMBER OF THE EUROPEAN LEADERS VISITING KYIV TODAY TO SHOW THAT SOLIDARITY.

PART OF THE RUSSIAN PLAN WAS YOU KNOW, TO CUT UKRAINE FULLY, TO FORCE EUROPE FOR INSTANCE TO ABANDON UKRAINE.

AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

SO I SHOULD SAY TODAY, THE DAY WHEN WE ARE REMEMBERING WHAT HAS HAPPENED FOUR YEARS AGO, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT A CELEBRATION.

BUT IT IS IN SOME WAY, RECOGNITION OF RESILIENCE.

EVERYONE REMINDS US AND REMEMBERS HOW WE WERE GIVEN THREE DAYS.

AND FOR INSTANCE, UKRAINE DIDN'T RECEIVE A PROPER WEAPON.

A LOT OF WESTERN EXPERTS THOUGHT IN GOVERNMENTS THAT OH, IT WOULD BE OVERTAKEN BY THE RUSSIANS BECAUSE UKRAINIANS WON'T STAND MORE THAN THREE WEEKS.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

THIS MARK OF FOUR YEARS IS GRIM.

BUT IT ALSO TELLS A LOT OF THE OTHER STORY AS WELL.

>> YES.

THAT THE STORY OF THE UKRAINIAN WILL TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THE COUNTRY'S INDEPENDENCE.

NATALYA THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR REPORTING.

> >> NOW AS WE ENTER THE FIFTH YEAR OF WAR, WHAT'S THE STATE OF PLAY ON THE BATTLEFIELD?

THE KREMLIN SPOKESPERSON CONCEDED VLADIMIR PUTIN'S SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION HAS NOT ACHIEVED ITS GOALS AND WILL THEREFORE CONTINUE BUT AT WHAT COST?

SINCE THE START OF THE FULL SCALE INVASION, 1.

2 MILLION RUSSIANS ARE DEAD OR INJURED.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE U. S. BASED CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES.

MILITARY ANALYST MICHAEL KAUFMAN WAS BORN IN KYIV AND SPENT YEARS STUDYING THE REALITIES OF THIS WAR, HE JOINED MY A LITTLE EARLIER TO DISCUSS HIS FOREIGN AFFAIRS PIECE UKRAINE'S WAR OF ENDURANCE.

I STARTED BY ASKING HIM OF HIS ASSESSMENT IN 2025, UKRAINE ACTUALLY DID BETTER ON THE BATTLEFIELD THAN MOST PEOPLE THINK.

>> SO MY VIEW IS 2025 WENT BETTER THAN EXPECTED.

RUSSIA CONTINUE TO HAVE ADVANTAGES IN MANPOWER.

THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO CONVERT THOSE ADVANTAGED TO BIG GAINS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE WAY THEY ARE FIGHTING SIMPLY HAS NOT BEEN CONDUCIVE TO ACHIEVING OPERATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT BREAKTHROUGHS AND UKRAINIAN MILITARY HAVING A LOT OF DIFFICULTIES IN TERMS OF SUPPLIES.

WAS STILL ABLE TO HOLD THEM TO INCREMENTAL GAINS.

IF WE LOOK AT THE TERRITORY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY GAINED, IT WAS ALONG THE AXIS AND PLACES WHERE THEY DIDN'T PRIORITIZE THEM.

UKRAINE WAS ULTIMATELY ABLE TO HOLD ONTO A PIECE OF DONESK.

IF WE LOOK AT HOW 2025 CLOSES OUT, UKRAINE FACES A HOST OF DIFFICULTIES.

BUT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY SIMPLY HASN'T DONE WELL.

THAT HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR TWO YEARS NOW.

IT IS PARTICULARLY GRIM.

NONE THE LESS, THE SITUATION ALONG THE FRONT LINE ISN'T DIRE AT THIS MOMENT.

>> YOU DO NOTE THE DIFFICULT REALITY THAT UKRAINE IS FACING IN THESE EARLY MONTHS OF 2026.

YOU DESCRIBED A SHIFT FROM SPEED AND MANEUVER TO A POSITIONAL SLOG.

IS THIS SPECIFIC TO THE UNIQUE GEOGRAPHY IN WHICH THIS FIGHTING IS TAKING PLACE?

>> SO I THINK THERE ARE TWO BIG FACTORS.

IF THIRST IS THIS A PROLONGED CONVENTION OF WAR.

WARS GO ALONG THIS FASHION.

ONCE BOTH PORTIONS HAVE A TENDENCY TO BE EXHAUSTED AND YOU HAVE DEFENSES, MINE FIELDS, ARTILLERY IN PLACE, ALONG A BATTLEFIELD.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TEND TO SEE IS AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME, BOTH SIDES TEND TO STRUGGLE TO ESTABLISH ANY TYPE OF DECISIVE ADVANTAGE IN THE FIGHT.

THE SECOND FACTOR IS ALSO DRONES.

THEY BROUGHT MASS PRECISION TO THE BATTLEFIELD AND THEY HAVE BEEN A BIG MULTIPLIER.

PARTICULARLY FOR THE DEFENDING SIDE IN THIS WAR.

THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY.

THE RUSSIAN FORCES HAVE STRUGGLED TO FIND A WAY FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT BREAKTHROUGHS IN THE BATTLEFIELD CHARACTERIZED BY TRADITIONAL DEFENSES BUT ALSO THE ADVENT OF DRONES AND THE PRESENCE OF MASS PRECISION ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> AND YOU NOTE THAT UKRAINE NO LONGER CAN CLAIM DRONE SUPERIORITY.

AND SAY THAT RUSSIA SPECIALIZED DRONE UNITS LIKE RUBICON HAVE EFFECTIVELY NEUTRALIZED THEIR ADVANTAGE.

WHAT CAN UKRAINE DO?

>> UKRAINE ENJOYED CONSIDERABLE ADVANTAGE.

THAT ADVANTAGE HAS BEEN REDUCED OVER THE COURSE OF 2025, RUSSIAN MILITARY, THEY HAVE ALSO GONE AFTER BEING MUCH BETTER ORGANIZED AND HOW THEY EMPLOY DRONES ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TRANSLATE THAT INTO SIGNIFICANT GAINS.

AND THEIR GROUND FORCES CONTINUE TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT ADVANCES.

CASUALTY EVACUATION.

MANY CASUALTIES NOW ARE NO LONGER AT THE FRONT LINE INFANTRY.

IT IS THOSE IN FIGHTING AND SUPPORTING ROLES.

UKRAINE IS TRYING TO STAY AHEAD OF THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES BUT THE THE CHALLENGE IS THAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD WE SEE BOTH SIDES ADAPTING AND INNOVATING IN THREE TO FOUR MONTH INTERVALS AND THE RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS A TENDENCY TO COPY WHAT THEY SEE WORKING FOR THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY.

>> IN RUSSIA THOUGH THEY HAVE SEEN SIGNIFICANT LOSSES, SOME 25,000 SOLDIERS A MONTH, DOES HAVE A MANPOWER ADVANTAGE AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS FOLLOWING THIS WAR THE LAST YEAR OR SO, THESE DRONE OPERATIONS, THEY STILL REQUIRE A LOT OF MANPOWER.

WHERE DOES THAT PUT UKRAINE ON THIS FRONT?

>> DRONE OPERATIONS REMAIN FAIRLY MANPOWER INTENSIVE.

DESPITE WHAT YOU HEAR ABOUT AUTONOMY AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN THIS WAR, THE REALITY IS MOST CAPABLES ARE REMOTELY OPERATED BY PEOPLE.

IT TAKES QUITE A FEW PEOPLE TO MAINTAIN THEM.

QUITE A FEW PEOPLE TO OPERATE AND REPAIR THEM.

THAT BEING THE KEY FACTOR, YES, RUSSIA RETAINS AN ADVANTAGE IN MANPOWER.

THAT ADVANTAGE HAS NOT PROVEN DECISIVE.

RUSSIAN RECRUITMENT IS INCREASINGLY COMING UP AGAINST THEIR MONTHLY LOSSES.

AND THERE IS AN ACTIVE DEBATE ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THE NUMBERS THEY HAD THE 2025.

HEADED INTO 2026.

UKRAINE IS PRIORITIZING ITS MANPOWER CHALLENGES.

IT DOES HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE, WITH INSUFFICIENT PEOPLE BEING MOBILIZED AND DRONE UNITS HAVING TO RECRUIT.

A LOT OF TIMES WITHIN THE FORCE.

THE NUMBER OF PERSONNEL.

THEY HAVE ON THE FRONT LINE.

AND TO CREATE BETTER OPPORTUNITIES TO CREATE ADDITIONAL FORCES.

SO FOR UKRAINE, MANPOWER REMAINS AN IMPORTANT CHALLENGE.

BUT IT IS ONE THEY HAVE BEEN PRIORITIZING AS BEST THEY CAN.

GIVEN THE CONSTRAINTS THEY ARE OPERATING.

>> AND RUSSIA'S ECONOMY IS FACING SOME OF ITS MOST SEVERE CONSTRAINTS SO FAR IN THIS WAR.

YOUR COLLEAGUE AT CARNEGIE DESCRIBES RUSSIA'S ECONOMY AS BEING QUOTE IN THE DEATH ZONE ITSELF IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

WESTERNERS KEEP WAITING FOR THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY TO COLLAPSE.

IT WON'T.

THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY IS STUCK IN WHAT MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS NEGATIVE EQUAL EQ UILIBRIUM.

THEY ARE COMPLETELY DEFENSE SECTOR DRIVEN.

SO WHAT INCENTIVE DOES VLADIMIR PUTIN HAVE IN YOUR VIEW IN ENDING THIS WAR, IF THERE WILL BE SEVERE REPERCUSSIONS IN HAVING TO REALIGN ECONOMIC INVESTMENTS ONCE THE WAR ENDS?

>> THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY HAVE ADAPTED TO THE WAR NOW.

SINCE WE ARE MARKING THIS GRIM FOUR YEAR ANNIVERSARY.

THE REALITY IS AFTER THE WAR THE RUSSIAN MILITARY IS LIKELY TO BENEFIT FROM SUBSTANTIAL DEFENSE SPENDING.

RUSSIA MAY ASK A VERY LARGE STATE ARMAMENT PROGRAM.

LATER IN THE SUMMER.

THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO KEEP SPENDING ON ITS MILITARY.

RUSSIA SPENDS ALMOST 40% OF THE GOVERNMENT BUDGET ON THE MILITARY AND MAYBE 8% OF THE GDP.

THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY IS CURRENTLY FACING ECONOMIC STAGNATION.

GROWING DEFICIT IN THE GOVERNMENT.

SO, MOST OF THE INDICATERS FOR THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY ARE NEGATIVE.

THAT SAID, IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT ANY OF THESE EFFECTS ARE TAKING PLACE FAST ENOUGH FOR UKRAINE.

THAT IS TO SAY, IT IS LIKELY TRUE THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY ISN'T GOING TO COLLAPSE HERE.

HOWEVER, IT IS DOUBTFUL THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO THE COST.

AND, IF UKRAINE'S TRANSGENDER, IT IS A GOOD QUESTION TO FORCE TO NEGOTIATE AND SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCE THEIR DEMANDS AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

>> YOU WRITE THAT PUTIN HAS BET ON A UKRAINIAN COLLAPSE AND WESTERN ABANDONMENT.

BOTH BETS TO PROVE TO BE WRONG.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT FOR HIM?

>> THAT HAS BEEN THE BET RUSSIA IS MAKING.

THE WAY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS BEEN FIGHTING HASN'T BEEN CONDUCIVE TO LEADING TO ANY COLLAPSE ON THE UKRAINIAN SIDE.

THE HARDSHIPS THEY FACE, THEY ARE STILL THE BENEFICIARIES OF INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT FROM WESTERN COUNTRIES.

IT IS TRUE THE UNITED STATES IS NO LONGER PROVIDING MOST OF ITS SUPPORT AS ASSISTANCE OR AID.

BUT THEY HAVE ONLINE MECHANISM FOR EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO ESSENTIALLY FUND THE CONTINUED PROVISION OF THIS ASSISTANCE AND AS YOU SAW MOST RECENTLY, EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IN DECEMBER ULTIMATELY AGREED TO ISSUE A LARGE EURO BONDS PACKAGE TO SUSTAIN UKRAINE FINANCIALLY.

SO THE RUSSIAN BET THEY CAN SIMPLY OUTLAST THE WEST SIMPLY HAS NOT PROVEN TRUE.

PUTIN IS LIKELY TO KEEP MAKING IT.

THE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, THOSE ARE TRUE UNTIL THEY ARE NOT.

AT SOME POINT, TRANSITIONS CAN GIVE AND YOU CAN HAVE GRADUAL THEN SUDDEN EFFECTS.

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, YES, PUTIN MIGHT KEEP MAKING THESE BETS BUT IT IS NOT ALWAYS A SMART BET.

TIME IS NOT ON RUSSIA'S SIDE IN THIS WAR.

>> AND ALSO, IMPORTANT TO NOTE WHILE THE UNITED STATES MAY NOT BE DIRECTLY PROVIDING UKRAINE WITH MILITARY EQUIPMENT, AND WEAPONS, SELLING THEM, WITH INTELLIGENCE AS WELL.

FOUR YEARS AGO, YOU WERE AMONG THE MINORITY WHO ACTUALLY PREDICTED THIS LARGER SCALE INVASION WOULD TAKE PLACE WHILE SO MANY OTHERS WERE SKEPTICAL.

LOOKING BACK, AT YOUR CALCULUS, WHAT WAS ONE THING ABOUT RUSSIA OR UKRAINE'S SIDE THAT HAD SURPRISED YOU IN HOW THIS WAR HAS UNFOLDED?

>> TO BE HONEST, I WISH I WASN'T RIGHT BACK THEN.

CERTAINLY THE WAY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY INVADED LOOKED DIFFERENT THAN WHAT FOLKS LIKE I PREDICTED AND WHAT IS PARTICULARLY A SURPRISE, THE CHARACTER INVASION, THE ASSUMPTIONS THEY MADE, THEY ESSENTIALLY WEREN'T PREPARED FOR MAJOR CONVENTIONAL WAR.

BUT ALSO, UKRAINIAN RESISTANCE PROVED A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR.

WE KNEW FAR LESS ABOUT THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY AT THE TIME.

SUBSTANTIALLY UNDERRATED IT.

AND ALSO, ABOUT OURSELVES.

OUR OWN POLICIES IN WESTERN COUNTRIES.

MOST OF THE EXPECTATIONS WERE BASED ON THE PROPOSITION UKRAINE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO FACE RUSSIA ALONE WHICH WAS SEEMINGLY A GRIM PROPOSITION AT THE TIME.

VERY QUICKLY, WESTERN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY THE UNITED STATES, CHANGED COURSE ON POLICIES.

THEY HAVE MADE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN THE WAR.

>> QUICKLY, THE LAST TIME I SPOKE WITH YOU, YOU PREDICTED THIS WAR WOULD GO INTO 2026.

DO YOU SEE IT COMING TO AN END IN 2026?

>> THAT'S HARD TO SAY.

I DO THINK THAT WE ARE PERHAPS NEAR THE BEGINNING OF THE END.

BUT THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THIS WAR IS GOING TO GO INTO 2027.

>> ALL RIGHT, MICHAEL KAUFMAN, APPRECIATE YOUR ANALYSIS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE TIME.

>> IT IS NOT JUST SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS, MORE THAN 20 JOURNALISTS AND MEDIA WORKER HAVES BEEN KILLED IN UKRAINE.

ONE OF THEM WAS BRENT RENOAUX.

NOW A DOCUMENTARY SHORT CALLED ARMED WITH A CAMERA TELLS HIS STORY.

>> HE FILMED ON THE FRONT LINES OF CONFLICTS.

ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT HE CARED ABOUT THE MOST WERE THE PEOPLE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

>> WHAT IS YOUR NAME?

>> MY NAME IS BRENT.

>> THE WAY YOU HOLD THAT CAMERA.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS FROM YOUR HEART.

>> THE OSCAR NOMINATED FILM WAS PRODUCED BY JUAN ARREDONDO WHO WAS SHOT IN THE AMBUSH THAT KILLED BRENT AND WAS PRODUCED BY HIS COUSIN CRAIG.

THEY JOIN ME LIVE.

CRAIG, JUAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

CRAIG, I AM SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.

JUAN, MY CONDOLENCES FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR COLLEAGUE AND FRIEND AS WELL.

AND LET ME BEGIN THERE.

AS YOU HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO OUR INTERVIEWS THIS PAST HOUR MARKING THE GRIM MILESTONE OF THE FOURTH YEAR OF THIS WAR.

WE ARE NOW ENTERING FIVE YEARS.

YOU WERE WITH BRENT WHEN HE WAS KILLED IN MARCH OF 2022.

YOU WERE SEVERELY EUROPEAN LEADERSED.

I'M WONDERING HOW YOU ARE REFLECTING BACK?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT IS HARD.

IT IS HARD TO LOOK BACK.

IT IS A REMINDER OF HOW CRUEL WAR CAN BE.

IT HAS CLAIMED THE LIVES OF INTERVIEWS, JOURNALISTS.

AND SO, THESE, EVERY YEAR, IT IS HARD TO ALWAYS THINK BACK ON THE DAY MY DEAR FRIEND AND OUR COLLEAGUE DIED.

SO IT IS SAD TO LOOK BACK AT THESE FOUR YEARS AND SEE THERE IS NO PROGRESS.

>> AND JUAN, HOW DID SURVIVING THAT MOMENT AND NOW SPENDING THREE YEARS WORKING ON THIS FILM, HOW DID IT CHANGE YOU AS A JOURNALIST AND A PERSONAL?

>> I SAY AS A JOURNALIST I'M MORE CONVINCED THAT WHAT WE DO MATTERS.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO BE PRESENT.

I THINK BRENT UNDERSTOOD THAT.

JOURNALISTS, WE KNOW THAT WE WON'T STOP VIOLENCE, BUT WE WILL MAKE DENIAL MUCH HARDER.

AND IT WILL CREATE A RECORD IN WHAT WE HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH WITH OUR WORK IS TO CREATE A RECORD SO IT WON'T BE EASILY ERASED SO I THINK THESE THREE YEARS HAVE BEEN A PROCESS OF HEALING AND REMEMBERING OUR FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE.

SO, WITH CRAIG, IT HAS ALSO BEEN THIS JOURNEY OF BROTHERHOOD.

OF LOOKING BACK AND REFLECTING ON THEIR WORK.

ON THE LEGACY OF BRENT.

ALSO PROPELLING.

I WAS ON MY WAY BACK HOME FROM REPORTING.

I CONTINUED TO WORK.

MORE THAN EVER, JOURNALISM MATTERS AND IS IMPORTANT TO WHAT HAPPENS HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD.

>> CRAIG, YOU AS A BROTHER, YOU HAD A PACT THAT IF ONE OF YOU WERE KILLED OR KIDNAPPED, QUOTE, WE KEEP FILMING.

AND, YOU DID JUST THAT.

EVEN FILMING HIS CASKET.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO W. I KNOW YOU HAD THE INTENT OF HAVING THE AUDIENCE GO THROUGH THAT DISCOMFORT TO SEE THE REALITIES OF WAR.

AND THE RISK THAT JOURNALISTS LIKE YOUR BROTHER TAKE IN COVERING WARS AROUND THE WORLD.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM THAT SHOWCASES THAT MOMENT.

>> SO, SO, HE JUST KEPT REPEATING IT.

WE'VE BEEN SHOT, WE'VE BEEN SHOT, WE'VE BEEN SHOT.

YOU KNOW.

AND I SAID WHERE'S BRENT?

AND HE SAID HE'S BEEN SHOT TOO.

I HAVE BEEN PULLED AWAY INTO A SEPARATE VEHICLE.

HE IS STILL THERE.

AND I SAID WHERE WAS HE SHOT?

AND I SAID DID HE HAVE HIS BEST ON?

HE SAID YES.

AND THEN I SAID WAS HE SHOT IN THE VEST OR THE FACE?

AND JUAN PAUSED.

HE DIDN'T ANSWER ME.

AND I KNEW RIGHT THEN BRENT WAS GONE.

>> IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THIS MOMENT THAT YOU THEN TRAVELED TO UKRAINE, FILMED YOUR BROTHER'S BODY IN THAT CASKET.

AND, BROUGHT HIM BACK HOME.

WHEN DID YOU KNOW THIS HAD TO BECOME A FILM AND HOW DID YOU CARRY THE WEIGHT OF TELLING HIS STORY AS YOU WERE GRIEVING YOURSELF?

>> BRENT AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT.

WE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS AND MOMENTS WHERE WE FELT LIKE WE MIGHT NOT MAKE IT HOME.

AND WE DID MAKE A PROMISE TO EACH OTHER THAT IF SOMETHING WAS TO HAPPEN, WE WOULD KEEP FILMING.

AND YOU KNOW, THE LAST MESSAGE I GOT FROM MY BROTHER WAS AS HE AND JUAN WERE ARRIVING TO THE FRONT LINES, NOT LONG AFTER THAT, I GOT A CALL FROM JUAN SAYING THEY HAD BEEN SHOT.

AND SO, PRETTY MUCH INSTANTLY I WAS ABLE TO CONFIRM MY BROTHER WAS KILLED I KNEW I HAD TO PICK UP A CAMERA AND GO RETRIEVE MY BROTHER'S BODY AND BRING IT HOME TO MY FAMILY.

AND IT WAS JOURNALISTS THAT HELPED ME GET BRENT HOME.

AND HELPED US GET JUAN HOME.

JUAN WAS BADLY INJURED AT A HOSPITAL THAT WAS BEING ACTIVELY BOMBED.

THERE WAS GOING TO BE NO WAY TO GET MY BROTHER'S BODY HOME IF WE DIDN'T GO INTO UKRAINE AND BRING HIM OUT.

SO I FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO HAVE MY CAMERA AND DOCUMENT THIS JOURNEY.

WE HAVE BEEN COVERING CONFLICT 20 YEARS AND FILMED THE HORRORS OF WAR.

WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT WHEN MY BROTHER WAS KILLED?

IT TOOK US THREE-AND-A-HALF YEARS TO EDIT THE FILM AND FINISH IT.

>> YOU ARE A JOURNALIST AND A GREAT ONE AT THAT.

BUT YOU ARE ALSO A HUMAN BEING AND YOU ARE ALSO SOMEONE WHO WAS EXTREMELY CLOSE WITH YOUR BROTHER.

I KNOW THAT YOU HOPE TO FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS AS A DOCUMENTTARIAN.

AND YOU CHRONICLE THAT IN THE FILM AS WELL IN YOUR CHILDHOOD.

LET'S SHOW A CLIP.

>> MY BROTHER BRENT WAS TWO YEARS OLDER THAN ME.

WHEN WE WERE LITTLE, I CAN REMEMBER FOLLOWING BRENT AROUND EVERYWHERE.

I ALWAYS LOOKED UP TO HIM.

WHEN BRENT TOLD ME HE WANTED TO BE A DOCUMENTARY FILM MAKER, I HAD TO BE THERE ALONGSIDE HIM.

FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS I FOLLOWED MY OLDER BROTHER TO THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACES IN THE WORLD.

>> WE KNOW THAT BRENT WAS INTENSELY PRIVATE AS WELL AND THAT WAS SHOWCASED IN THE FILM.

INCLUDING INTIMATE MOMENTS WHERE HE REVEALS HE ACTUALLY HAD A DIAGNOSIS OF AUTISM AND SAYS THAT HE SOMEHOW WAS CALM IN WAR ZONES BUT EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN HE WAS AT SOCIAL EVENTS AND AT COCKTAIL PARTIES.

DID YOU HESITATE TO SHARE THAT SIDE OF HIM?

>> I FELT LIKE IF IT WAS SOMETHING BRENT HAD SHARED HIMSELF, I WAS COMFORTABLE SHARING IT.

BRUNT HAD GIVEN A SPEECH TO HIS CLASSMATES AND MADE A DECISION TO TALK ABOUT HIS DIAGNOSIS TO HIS CLASSMATES AND WE WERE FORTUNATE TO HAVE THAT TALK THAT HE GAVE.

JUAN WAS ACTUALLY THERE THAT DAY.

THAT IS HOW THEY MET AT HARVARD.

SO WE JUST TRIED TO ASK OURSELVES IF WE FELT LIKE THIS IS THINGS BRENT WANTED REVEALED BY WE FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND ALL SIDES OF BRENT AND WHAT DROVE HIM.

HE WAS A VERY INTENSE AND QUIET PERSON, BUT ALSO A VERY EMPATHETIC AND COMPASSIONATE PERSON.

THAT IS ALWAYS MATILY WHAT DROVE HIS WORK.

WE COVERED CONFLICTS, BRENT COVERED PRETTY MUCH EVERY FRONT LINE SINCE 9/11.

IT WAS ALWAYS MOTIVATED BY THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

THAT'S WHAT MOTIVATED HIM AND THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT LED TO HIS DEATH.

HIM AND JUAN WERE TRYING TO PUSH DEEPER INTO THE CONFLICT TO GET TO REFUGEES FLEEING THEIR HOMES AND TO TELL THAT STORY.

SO THAT PEOPLE COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT WAR AND VIOLENCE DOES TO PEOPLE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT EXTRAORDINARY EMPATHY.

IN SOMALIA, WE SEE A WOUNDED MAN SAYING TO BRENT, THE WAY YOU ARE HOLDING THAT CAMERA, YOU ARE DOING IT FROM YOUR HEART.

YOU SEE HOW WOUNDED THIS MAN WAS.

HE CALLS BRENT OVER TO TELL HIM THAT VERY THING.

AND THERE IS A MOMENT IN THE FILM IN UKRAINE WHERE HE IS TRYING TO COMFORT A UKRAINIAN WOMAN AFTER A RUSSIAN ATTACK.

LET'S PLAY THAT CLIP.

>> THIS DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.

WERE YOU HERE WHEN THE BOMB HIT?

>> I TEAR UP EVERY TIME I HEAR THAT WOMAN SAY THAT IT IS SO CARRY.

AND BRENT WAS STANDING THERE JUST INCHES AWAY FROM HER TO CAPTURE IT.

JUAN, HAVING WORKED WITH BRENT, WHAT DID HE UNDERSTAND ABOUT HUMANS, ABOUT WHAT CIVILIANS WENT THROUGH DURING TIMES OF CRISES?

ESPECIALLY A WAR?

>> I THINK THAT WAS A GIFT THAT BRENT AND I WAS LUCKY TO SEE IN ACTION.

AND SEE IN LIFE HOW HE WAS JUST VERY EMPATHETIC TO THE SITUATION, WANTING TO UNDERSTAND, NOT COME TO THE SCENE OR AS YOU SEE IN THE SCENE, NOT COME WITH ANY PREJUDGMENT.

HONESTLY, JUST WITH CURIOSITY AND OPEN HEART.

WANTING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING THROUGH.

RESPECTING OBVIOUSLY AS YOU SEE IN THE CLIP THAT THE WOMAN AT ONE POINT SAYS SHE JUST DOESN'T WANT TO SPEAK ANYMORE.

WE ALWAYS RESPECTED THAT.

BUT I THINK PEOPLE CAN SEE THAT AND SAW IN HIM THIS HUMILITY, BUT ALSO, THIS KINDNESS OF JUST WANTING TO BE THERE.

WHEN YOU ARE IN THESE SITUATIONS, PEOPLE WANT TO TALK.

THEY WANT TO BE HEARD AND I THINK THEY PERCEIVE THAT IN PRESENT.

THEY WANTED TO TELL THEIR STORIES.

OFTEN TIMES WE CAME ACROSS PEOPLE WHO THANKED US FOR BEING THERE, FOR CARING FOR THEIR CONFLICT AND BEING IN THEIR COUNTRY IN THE MIDST OF THE START OF THE INVASION.

AS WE WERE IN THAT WEEK OF THIS CLIP.

THAT IS WHAT COMES ACROSS IN MANY OF THE SCENES WE HAVE IN THE DOCUMENTARY.

I ALWAYS GO BACK TO THAT CLIP IN SOMALIA.

CRAIG CAN PROBABLY TELL THAT STORY BETTER BUT HE HAD A DREAM WHERE BRENT TOLD HIM THERE IS FOOTAGE OF THAT.

BUT THAT IS WHAT I THINK PEOPLE PERCEIVED IN HIM.

THE WAY HE HELD THECAMERA.

HIS COMPOSURE.

WE NEVER INTERVENED OR PEPPERED PEOPLE WITH MANY QUESTIONS.

JUST HONESTLY WANTED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THEM.

>> LISTENING.

YOU KNOW.

AS WE ALWAYS TELL OTHER JOURNALISTS IS THE BEST FORM OF JOURNALISM.

WHEN YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO GET TO THE TRUTH.

AND AS YOU ARE NURTURING AND INVESTING IN SUPPORTING OTHER JOURNALISTS, I KNOW YOU ARE DOING THAT THROUGH THE BRENT RENAUD FOUNDATION.

CREATING HEALING SPACES.

IN THESE FINAL FEW SECONDS GIVE US A BIT OF WHAT YOU ARE ENCOURAGING THEM BY WHEN WE SEE THE NUMBER OF JOURNALISTS KILLED ONLY GO UP.

HOW ARE YOU KEEPING THEM HOPEFUL IN REMINDING THEM HOW IMPORTANT THIS FIELD IS?

>> WE WANT TO REMIND THEM HOW TO DO THIS JOB AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE.

JOURNALISM HAS REALLY CHANGED IN THE 20 YEARS I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS.

WE WERE ALWAYS CONCERNED ABOUT THE DANGER IN CONFLICT ZONES AND WE KNEW THE RISK BUT THIS IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME NOW WHERE JOURNALIST HAVES A TARGET ON THEIR BACKS AND ARE BEING TARGETED.

THERE HAS BEEN OVER 400 JOURNALISTS KILLED SINCE MY BROTHER DIED.

EVERY YEAR IS A RECORD BREAKING YEAR AND IT DOESN'T SHOW ANY SIGNS OF GETTING BETTER SO WE WANT YOUNG PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE RISK AND WHY THIS IS SO IMPORTANT TO KEEP GOING.

BRENT TALKED ABOUT THIS.

WITHOUT JOURNALISM, THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY.

>> YEAH.

WELL CRAIG RENAUD AND JUAN ARRENANDO, YOU CAPTURE HIS COMMITMENT TO TRUTH TELLING SO BRILLIANTLY.

ARMED ONLY WITH A CAMERA IS OUT ON HBO MAX.

> >> IT IS EASY TO FEEL OVERWHELMED BY THE UNCERTAIN TIMES WE ARE LIVING IN.

BUT HOW CAN WE BEST NAVIGATE IT ALL?

MAYA IS A COGNITIVE SCIENTIST AND FORMER SENIOR ADVISER IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

HER NEW BOOK THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE OFFERS SOME GUIDANCE ON WAYS TO DEAL WITH THE UNEXPECTED AS WE DISCUSSES WITH HARI SVREENIVASAN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A BOOK OUT CALLED THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE.

YOU HAVE HAD A SUCCESSFUL PODCAST FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS TO WRITE THIS BOOK ABOUT CHANGE?

>> I THINK IT IS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I'M TERRIBLE AT NAVIGATING THE UNEXPECTED CHANGES IN LIFE.

AND I FIND IT REALLY SCARY AND REALLY DESTABILIZING.

FOR ONE, I DON'T LOVE UNCERTAINTY.

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT MOST OF US, OUR BRAINS ARE NOT WIRED TO ENJOY UNCERTAINTY.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE STUDIES SHOWS WE ARE MORE STRESSED WHEN WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE A 50% CHANCE OF RECEIVING AN ELECTRIC SHOCK THAN WHEN WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE A 100% CHANCE.

SO, WE WOULD RATHER BE CERTAIN THAT A NEGATIVE THING IS GOING TO HAPPEN THAN HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH ANY UNCERTAINTY.

AND OF COURSE, A BIG UNEXPECTED CHANGE IN OUR LIVES IS ACCOMPANIED BY SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY.

AND THERE IS THE LOSS OF IDENTITY AND MANY OTHER VERY DISCOMEFITTING ELEMENTS.

HOW DO WE DO CHANGE BETTER?

IT WILL COME FOR ALL OF US WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.

AS A COGNITIVE SCIENTIST I WANT TO PUT ON THAT HAT AND EXPLORE THIS SPACE FURTHER.

>> SO IS THIS THE FULL GAMUT OF CHANGES?

WHETHER IT IS A NEW JOB?

A NEW CITY?

A DIVORCE?

WHAT KINDS OF CHANGES?

>> THE KIND I'M MOST INTERESTED IN IS ONE THAT IS WILDLY UNEXPECTED.

THE MOMENTS IN LIFE IN WHICH THE ANVIL FALLS FROM THE CLEAR BLUE SKY AND WE FEEL SO UNPREPARED AND UNCERTAIN ABOUT HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

IT IS SO INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK IN THESE TOUGH MOMENTS IN MY LIFE, I HEARD THIS MANTRA THAT WHILE WE CAN'T CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS TO US, WE CAN CONTROL OUR REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENS.

AND IT IS MEANT TO BE AN EMPOWERING MANTRA ROOTED IN ANCIENT WISDOM.

IN THOSE MOMENTS HONESTLY, IT IS REALLY FELT FOLLOW.

IT HAS RUN HOLLOW BECAUSE I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY KNOWN HOW TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT I RESPOND.

IT'S NOT LIKE THERE IS A SWITCH IN MY BRAIN I CAN FLIP ONTO BE MORE PEACEFUL AND HOPEFUL ABOUT THE FUTURE.

MY GOAL IN WRITING" THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE" WAS TO GIVE PEOPLE A MANUAL.

TO PAIR POWERFUL STORIES OF CHANGE WITH THE SCIENCE OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR TO HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN ACTUALLY THINK AND FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THESE MOMENTS OF DISRUPTION IN LIFE.

>> ONE QUOTE IS WHAT IF WE SAW THE HARDEST MOMENTS IN OUR LIVES AS A CHANCE TO REIMAGINE OURSELVES RATHER THAN SOMETHING TO JUST ENDURE.

HOW DO WE TAKE THAT THING THAT FEELS LIKE THIS HEAVY ANVIL AND TURN IT INTO A POTENTIAL FOR REVELATION?

>> SO WHEN A NEGATIVE THING HAPPENS IN OUR LIVES IT CAN FEEL LIKE A PERSONAL APOCALYPSE.

LIKE THE WORLD THAT WE KNEW AND GREW SO COMFORTABLE WITH IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US.

AND ONE OF THE FASCINATING THINGS THAT I DISCOVERED IN DOING RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK IS APOCALYPSE COMES FROM THE GREEK WORD APOCALYPSES.

CHANGE CAN OFFEND US BUT IT CAN ALSO REVEAL THINGS TO US.

IN THESE MOMENTS WHERE WE ARE THRUST INTO A NEW REALITY, THE DEMANDS AND STRESSES OF OUR NEW SITUATION CAN REVEAL THING TO US ABOUT WHO WE ARE THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY HIDDEN FROM VIEW.

SO THINGS LIKE OUR ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS ABOUT THE WORLD AND OURSELVES.

NEW CAPABILITIES.

NEW WAYS OF SEEING THE WORLD.

AND, I FELT VERY HEARTENED THAT WE CAN AT LEAST HAVE THIS TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

I WOULD SAY BY AND LARGE, THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED ARE NOT HAPPY THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH THE CHANGE THEY WENT THROUGH.

BUT WHAT THEY WERE REALLY GRATEFUL FOR WAS WHO THEY BECAME AS A RESULT OF THE CHANGE THEY WENT THROUGH.

THEY WERE GRATEFUL FOR THE NEWFOUND CONFIDENCE OR FREEDOM THEY TAPPED INTO.

THE RENEWED RELATIONSHIP THEY HAD WITH THEIR FAMILY.

THE NEW POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY ENVISIONED FOR THEIR FUTURE.

ALL OF THAT WAS AN UNEXPECTED GIFT THAT CAME FROM THE HARDEST MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVE S.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT A WOMAN WHO SUFFERS A STROKE.

SHE IS LOCKED INTO HER BODY.

ALL SHE CAN CONTROL IS HER ABILITY TO BLINK.

IN THAT CHAPTER, YOU WRITE OUR ATTACHMENT TO A SPECIFIC IDENTITY CAN STAND IN THE WAY OF ACCEPTING OUR NEW REALITY.

TELL US ABOUT THIS WOMAN AND HOW SHE MANAGED TO DEAL WITH THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHANGE WE COULD EVER IMAGINE?

>> YEAH.

IT WAS SUCH A HARROWING CHANGE AND ONE THING I LEARNED OVER THE YEARS IS A PRIMARY REASON CHANGE CAN FEEL SO SCARY AND SO INTIMIDATING AND SO GRIEF FILLED, IT CAN CHALLENGE OUR FUNDAMENTAL SENSE OF SELF.

OUR SELF IDENTITY.

FOR OLIVIA, THE WOMAN IN THE BOOK WHO HAS A MASSIVE BRAIN STEM STROKE IN HER EARLY 20s , SHE IS LEFT WITH LOCK IN SYNDROME.

AS YOU MENTIONED WHEN YOU HAVE LOCKED IN SYNDROME, YOU CANNOT VOLUNTARILY MOVE ANY OF THE MUSCLES IN YOUR BODY EXCEPT FOR THE MUSCLES CONTROLLING YOUR EYES.

SO BLINKS IS YOUR ONLY PORTAL FOR COMMUNICATING WITH THE WORLD AROUND YOU.

ONE THING I WAS SO INTENT ON WAS CAPTURING EXTRAORDINARY STORIES BUT ONES THAT ALSO HAD UNIVERSAL LESSONS.

VERY RELATABLE LESSONS SO IT TURNS OUT THAT ONE OF OLIVIA'S BIGGEST BARRIERS IS SHE WAS BY NATURE A PEOPLE PLEASER, SHE WANTED TO WIN THE APPROVAL OF OTHERS IN HER LIFE.

LOCKED IN LIMITED HER ABILITY TO CURATE AN IMAGE OF HERSELF TO BE THE KIND OF PERSON SHE THOUGHT WOULD BE PALATABLE TO THOSE AROUND HER.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF SOMEONE HAVING TO RECKON WITH REALLY CONFRONTING THEIR TRUE SELF.

BECAUSE SHE HAD NO OTHER OPTION.

AND LEARNING TO ACTUALLY EMBRACE THAT SELF AND LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND ACCEPT HERSELF FULLY.

WHAT I FOUND SO WONDERFUL ABOUT HER STORY IS IT SHOWS THAT OUR SENSE OF SELF IDENTITY IS TRULY MALLEABLE.

I HAD A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS A TEENAGER IN WHICH I HAD BEEN AN ASPINING CONCERT VIOLINIST.

I STUDIED UNDER ITZAK PERLMAN AND AN INJURY ENDED THOSE DREAMS OVERNIGHT.

I FELT A PROFOUND LOSS OF IDENTITY.

I DIDN'T REALIZE UNTIL I LOST THE VIOLIN HOW MUCH IT HAD COME TO DEFINE ME.

LEARNING ABOUT OLIVIA'S EXPERIENCE OF CHANGE WHICH IS SO MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN ANYTHING I WENT THROUGH WAS SO PRODUCTIVE FOR ME.

I LEARNED THAT IT CAN BE PRECARIOUS TO ANCHOR OUR IDENTITIES TOO MUCH TO THESE PRECARIOUS SOURCES, IN MY CASE, TO WHAT I DID.

BECAUSE LIFE CAN TAKE AWAY YOUR WHAT IN A MOMENT.

SO I LEARNED THAT ACTUALLY ONE LESSON FOR ALL OF US IS TO INSTEAD ANCHOR OUR IDENTITY TO WHY WE DO THE THINGS WE DO.

AND WHEN YOU IDENTIFY WHAT YOUR WHY IS, WHETHER IT IS A COMMITMENT TO SERVICE OR HAVING A CREATIVE OUTLET OR IMPROVING A SKILL, THAT WHY WILL BE A STABLE FORCE THAT SERVES AS A COMPASS TO GUIDE YOU TOWARD YOUR NEXT STEPS.

>> YOU WRITE ALSO ABOUT DENIAL IN A WAY I HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE.

I WONDER IF IN THESE MOMENTS OF CHANGE, ARE WE SORT OF MOURNING A LOSS OF A PAST?

WHY ARE WE IN DENIAL OF WHAT SEEMS OBVIOUS TO US WHEN IT HITS US?

>> WE CAN THINK OF DENIAL AS A PSYCHOLOGICAL IMMUNE RESPONSE.

RESEARCHERS HAVE SAID THAT DENIAL IS NATURE'S WAY OF LETTING IN ONLY AS MUCH AS WE CAN HANDLE.

AND WHAT IS SO INTERESTING IS THAT RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT IN THE SHORT TERM, DENIAL IS NOT ACTUALLY PROBLEMATIC.

IT CAN BE QUITE ADAPTIVE.

IT GIVES US A BOOST OF RESILIENCE AND MUCH NEEDED OPTIMISM AND ALLOWS TO BELIEVE THAT MAYBE THERE IS A MORE PROMISING PATH FORWARD, DENIAL IN THE LONGER TERM IS PROBLEMATIC BUT I THINK WE CAN BE VERY INTOLERANT WHEN WE SENSE WE OR OTHERS ARE IN DENIAL IN THE ACUTE SESSIONS OF GRIEF.

IT MIGHT BE A NECESSARY STAGE.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHANGES WE ARE COLLECTIVELY FACING RIGHT NOW.

THAT I THINK AT TIMES PEOPLE WANT TO JUST CHECK OUT.

I CAN'T CONTROL ANY OF THIS OR THEY GET INTO THIS DOOM LOOP AND RUMINATE AND HAVE NEGATIVE THOUGHTS OVER AND OVER.

HOW DO WE BREAK OUT OF THAT CYCLE?

>> THE FIRST THING I WILL SAY IS WHEN A BIG CHANGE HAPPENS TO US, IT CAN ALSO LEAD TO LASTING CHANGE WITHIN US.

WE FALL PREY TO AN ILLUSION CALLED THE END OF HISTORY ILLUSION.

AND WHAT THIS SAYS IS THAT WHILE WE FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE WE HAVE CHANGED CONSIDERABLY IN THE PAST, WE FAILED TO APPRECIATE THAT WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE MOVING FORWARD.

SO RESEARCHERS SAY THAT WE FALSELY BELIEVE THAT THE PRESENT MOMENT REPRESENTS THIS WATERSHED MOMENT IN TIME.

IN WHICH WE BECOME THE PERSON WE WILL BE FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.

BUT OF COURSE THAT IS NOT TRUE.

WE ARE ALWAYS CHANGING.

AND, A BIG CHANGE CAN ACTUALLY ACCELERATE THESE INTERNAL TRANSFORMATIONS.

IF YOU ARE FEELING DAUNTED AT THE ONSET OF A CHANGE, ABOUT YOUR JOB AND THE ROLE OF AI WHETHER YOU ARE ANXIOUS ABOUT OTHER CHANGE THAT MIGHT HAPPEN WITHIN YOUR FAMILY.

JUST REMEMBER THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF HOPE THERE BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT YOU ARE RIGHT NOW WILL NOT BE THE PERSON WHO IS ACTUALLY NAVIGATING THE FULL EXPERIENCE.

THAT PERSON WILL BE DIFFERENT, ARMED WITH NEW VALUES AND CAPABLES AND PERSPECTIVES AND NEW WAYS OF TACKLING THE CHALLENGE.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT YOU CAN USE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT EFFECTIVE ANTIRUMINATION STRATEGIES.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE IS FALLED AFFECT LABELING.

WHEN YOU GIVE A LABEL TO THE NEGATIVE EMOTION YOU ARE FEELING.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF CHANGE, YOU MIGHT FEEL YOUR BRAIN IS JUST SPIRALING IN NEGATIVITY.

BUT ACTUALLY, I THINK IDENTIFYING WHAT YOU ARE FEELING SO MAYBE IT IS FRUSTRATION, MAYBE IT IS ANGER, GRIEF.

THAT CAN HELP YOU SHIFT YOUR FOCUS AWAY FROM BEING THE EMOTION.

TO WHERE IT IS SIMPLY HAVING THE EMOTION.

IF YOU HAVE AN EMOTION, IT READS PSYCHOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU MENTION IS THE POWER OF AWE.

AND I KNOW WE CAN'T ALL SORT OF GO AND STAND ON THE EDGE OF THE GRAND CANYON EVERY DAY.

BUT WHAT ARE WAYS WE CAN INJECT AWE INTO OUR LIVES THAT MIGHT HELP BREAK THE NEGATIVE DOOM LOOP CYCLES?

>> AWE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE ANTIRUMINATION STRATEGIES.

IT IS REALLY AVAILABLE TO ALL OF US.

NATURALLY, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT AWE, WE THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE MUSIC AND ART.

BUT THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF AWE THAT I THINK IS UNDERRECOGNIZED.

THAT IS MORAL BEAUTY.

WHEN WE ACTUALLY JUST WITNESS OTHER PEOPLE'S EXTRAORDINARY ACTIONS OR BEHAVIORS.

KINDNESS OR SELF-SACRIFICE OR COURAGE.

THAT IS TRULY EVERYWHERE.

IT MIGHT BE AT THE SUPERMARKET.

IF YOU WATCH SOMEONE BE KIND TO AN ELDERLY SHOPPER.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT AWE IS WHEN WE ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF SOMETHING VAST, THAT TRANSCENDS OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD, THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF AWE.

IT DOES CHANGE OUR BRAINS.

IT WILL DAMPEN THE ACTIVITY IN THE DEFAULT MODE NETWORK.

IN PARTS OF OUR BRAINS ASSOCIATED WITH SELF IMMERSION.

IT ALLOWS US TO STEP OUT OF OUR WANTS AND NEEDS AND ANXIETIES AND SEE OURSELVES AS PART OF A LARGER WHOLE AND SEE OUR PROBLEMS WITH A BIT MORE DISTANCE AND A GREATER SENSE OF WONDER AND POSSIBILITY.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL NAMED REGINALD DWAYNE BETTS.

SENTENCED TO NINE YEARS IN PRISON FOR AN ARMED CARJACKING.

HE SAID WITH ONE GUILTY PLEA, THE LIST OF POSSIBILITIES HAS BEEN REDUCED TO NO POSSIBILITIES.

AND SINCE LEAVING PRISON, HE HAS WON SEVERAL AWARDS FOR HIS POETRY, GONE TO LAW SCHOOL.

A PRISON REFORM ADVOCATE.

HOW DID HE CREATE THESE ALTERNATE POSSIBILITIES FOR WHO HE COULD BE?

>> I THINK WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THAT FEELING WE HAVE WHEN LIFE MAKES OTHER PLANS FOR US.

AND, WE SEE ALL OF THESE DOORS CLOSING AROUND US.

WHAT RESEARCH SHOWS IS THAT WHEN WE TRY TO PICK UP THE PIECES AND REIMAGINE WHO WE CAN BE IN OUR NEW CIRCUMSTANCES, OUR IMAGINATIONS CAN REALLY RESTRICT US.

THAT IS BECAUSE WE CAN CARRY UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE KINDS OF FUTURES THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO SOMEONE WHO IS FACING OUR NEW SITUATION.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST LOST THEIR JOB OR WHO IS A FULL TIME CARE GIVER OR WHO IS NAVIGATING AN ILLNESS OR WHO LIKE DWAYNE IS INCARCERATED.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE STRATEGIES FOR CRACKING OPEN OUR IMAGINATION, FOR SEEING THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY MORE EXPANSIVE POSSIBILITIES FOR US IS MORAL ELEVATION.

SO WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MORAL BEAUTY AS A FORM OF LAW.

WHAT IS MORAL ELEVATION?

IT IS THAT WARM FUZZY FEELING WE GET IN OUR CHEST WHEN WE WITNESS SOMEONE ELSE'S EXTRAORDINARY BEHAVIORS.

WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN WE EXPERIENCE SOMEONE ELSE DEFYING OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOWN US THE BEST OF HUMANITY.

IT WAS AN ENCOUNTER WITH A FELLOW PRISONER.

A GUY WHO SHOWS SUCH DEEP CARE AND KINDNESS.

INSPIRED DWAYNE TO REALIZE, HE COULD USE HIS VOICE TO ACTUALLY PROTECT THE YOUNG MEN IN PRISON.

AND HE ENDED UP DECIDING TO BECOME A POET.

TO USE WORDS TO DIGNIFY THE EXPERIENCE OF MEN OF COLOR WITHIN THE PRISON SYSTEM.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED HE HAS JUST HAD INCREDIBLE PATH AND SO MUCH SUCCESS.

AND I JUST LOVE THAT IT WAS A MOMENT OF MORAL ELEVATION THAT LED HIM TO THIS POINT.

>> FIRST ON YOUR PODCAST.

NOW IN THE BOOK.

YOUR OWN JOURNEY WITH MISCARRIAGE AND SURROGACY.

AND YOU WRITE I WAS GOING TO BE A VIOLINIST, THEN I WAS GOING TO BE A MOTHER, NOW I FIND MYSELF CONCEIVING OF A FUTURE IN WHICH I AM NEITHER.

UNEXPECTEDLY, I'M MORE HOPEFUL THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN.

HOW DID YOU GET TO THIS PLACE OF HOPEFULNESS?

>> LONG STORY SHORT, MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO START A FAMILY FOR AT THIS POINT ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AND I STILL REMEMBER THE NIGHT WE FOUND OUT THAT OUR SURROGATE HAD MISCARRIED FOR A SECOND TIME AND WE HAD LOST IDENTICAL TWIN GIRLS.

AND I WAS JUST DEVASTATED, HARI, BECAUSE THE DAY HAD BEEN A TOTAL EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER, WE HAD SEEN HEALTHY BEATING HEARTS IN THE AFTERNOON.

AND THEN WE GET GREETED WITH THIS TRAGIC NEWS THAT THE PREGNANCY WAS NOT GOING TO WORK.

AND I REMEMBER JUST BEING UNDER THE COVERS JUST FEELING REALLY MISERABLE AND ALL THE COLORFROM MY FUTURE HAD BEEN DRAINED AND TURNED TO GRAY SCALE.

ONE OF THE EARLIEST DREAMS I EVER HAD WAS TO BECOME A MOM.

I REMEMBER MY HUSBAND JIMMY CAME INTO THE ROOM AND HE SAID MAYA, LET'S DO A QUICK GRATITUDE EXERCISE.

AND LET ME TELL YOU IN THAT MOMENT, I WAS NOT HAVING IT.

I SAID JIMNY, YOU GO TO YOUR TOXICS POSITIVITY THING IN THE CORNER.

WHAT HE WAS HAVING WAS CALLED BY PSYCHOLOGISTS A SELF- AFFIRMATION EXERCISE, THIS IS WHEN YOU LIST ALL THE THINGS THAT BRING YOU MEANING IN YOUR LIFE.

THAT ARE NOT THREATENED BY THE CHANGE YOU ARE GOING THROUGH.

I JUST STARTED TO RATTLE OFF SOME ITEMS.

FIRST, I'M GRATEFUL FOR YOU.

AND GRATEFUL TO BE AN AUNT TO MY NIECES AND NEPHEWS AND THAT I GET TO GO INTO MY LITTLE CLOSET IN MY APARTMENT AND RECORD MY PODCAST WHERE I GET TO HEAR EXTRAORDINARY STORIES OF PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

AS I WAS DOING THIS EXERCISE, I FELT LIKE SOMETHING MAGICAL HAPPENED WHICH WAS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YEARS, I ZOOMED OUT ON MY LIFE.

I LET GO OF THE TUNNEL VISION I DEVELOPED.

WHEN I WAS SO FOCUSED ON BEING A MOM.

I SAW MY LIFE WAS SO RICH AND MULTIDIMENSIONAL.

THERE WERE SO MANY IDENTITIES I FOUND SO MUCH MEANING AND VALUE IN.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO THIS QUICK EXERCISE, TAKE FIVE MINUTES TO WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS THAT BRING YOUR LIFE MEANING AND IT WILL JUST HELP YOU TO SEE YOUR LIFE AS A WHOLE.

TO NOT FEEL THAT EVERY FIBER OF YOUR BEING ISN'T BEING THREATENED.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED THE OTHER SIDE OF CHANGE.

THE PODCAST IS CALLED A SLIGHT CHANGE OF PLANS.

MAYA, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME, HARI.

> >> FINALLY, AS THE BRUTAL WAR IN UKRAINE ENTERS ITS FIFTH YEAR, WE SHOW YOU IMAGES AROUND THE WORLD.

BUILDINGS IN BRUSSELS LIT UP IN YELLOW AND BLUE.

THE OPENING OF A NEW MUSEUM IN BERLIN FEATURING ITEMS FROM THE FRONT LINES TO COMMEMORATE RESILIENCE AND THE SUFFERING OF THOSE AFFECTED.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT THE FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP ON OUR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.