>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO BREAK US SO THAT AMERICA CAN OWN US.

THAT WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN.

>> CANADA'S PRIME MINISTER DIRECTS HIS OPENING MESSAGE TO THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT IS NEXT FOR THE ONCE FRIENDLY NEXT- DOOR NEIGHBORS.

I ASKED CANADIAN JOURNALIST ANDREW COYNE.

AND THEN ISRAEL'S SECURITY CHIEF RESIGNS AMONG A FEUD WITH THE PRIME MINISTER.

WE FIND OUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE WAR IN GAZA AND FEARS FOR FREE SPEECH IN THE UNITED STATES.

I SPEAK ABOUT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT AND ALSO AHEAD.

>> TODAY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS MORE POPULAR IN VIETNAM THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

>> 50 YEARS SINCE THE FALL OF SAIGON AND THE FORMER AMBASSADOR REFLECTS UNCHANGING RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COUNTRIES WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT .

MAJOR SUPPORT FOR AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS PROVIDED BY JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. GOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J.

D MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ON THE 100th DAY OF HIS TERM, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS LOST AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN ALLY NORTH OF THE BORDER AND IN A STUNNING TURNAROUND THE LIBERAL PARTY UNDER THE NEW LEADERSHIP HAS WON REELECTION AND JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO THE CONSERVATIVE OPPOSITION WERE THE FAVORITE TO WIN THE TARIFFS AND THREATS TO CANADA'S SOVEREIGNTY RESHAPE THE RACE AS THE PRIME MINISTER MADE CLEAR IN HIS VICTORY SPEECH.

>> AMERICA WANTS OUR LAND, RESOURCES, OUR WATER AND COUNTRY AND WE ARE OVER THE SHOCK OF THE AMERICAN BETRAYAL BUT WE SHOULD NEVER FORGET THE LESSONS.

WE HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR OURSELVES.

AND ABOVE ALL, WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER.

>> WELL, WHAT COULD CANADA U. S. RELATIONS LOOK LIKE UNDER THEIR NEW LEADER?

THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF THE BANKS OF CANADA AND ENGLAND AND OUR FIRST GUEST IS WATCHING THIS.

A LONG TIME JOURNALIST WITH THE GLOBAL MAIL AND AUTHOR OF THE BOOK THE PRICES OF CANADIAN DEMOCRACY, ANDREW COYNE.

WE CAN'T OVERSTATE WHAT A POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE THE LAST SIX MONTHS HAVE BEEN SHAKING UP THE DYNAMICS IN CANADA AND IF YOU HAD TOLD SOMEBODY SIX MONTHS AGO THAT THE LIBERAL PARTY WOULD WIN AGAIN A FOURTH TERM GIVEN THE STATE OF AFFAIRS AND THE AVAILABILITY CRISIS I THINK PEOPLE WOULD'VE LEFT YOU OFF THE STAGE BUT HERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW SQUARELY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED WITH THE U. S. CANADIAN RELATIONSHIPS AND SPECIFICALLY FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP AND TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS MOMENT FOR CANADA.

>> EVEN THREE MONTHS AGO THE LIBERAL CONSERVATIVE UP AND IT WAS DONE AND NOBODY GAVE THE LIBERALS ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER AND THREE THINGS HAPPENED.

ONE IS JUSTIN TRUDEAU RESIGNED AS PRIME MINISTER AND A SECOND WAS HE STARTED RAMPING UP THESE ABSURD THREATS AGAINST THE COUNTRY AND THIRDLY THEY ELECTED MARK CARNEY IS THE REPLACEMENT.

YOU HAD A VERY ODD ELECTION WHERE THIS CONCERN WAS WE ARE RUNNING AGAINST THE LIBERALS AND THE RECORD HAD BROUGHT THEM TO A LOW POINT IN THE POLLS AND THE LIBERALS RAN AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

THIS SCALDED THE PUBLIC AND IT SCARED PEOPLE PHILLY.

IT BECAME REALLY AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST PART OF THE ELECTION ABOUT WHICH LEADER COULD BEST STAND UP TO DONALD TRUMP AND THE VERDICT OF A LOT OF THE VOTERS WAS IN FAVOR OF MARK CARNEY.

>> WHAT WE HEARD THROUGH HIM THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN WAS IF IT WASN'T A CRISIS YOU WOULDN'T BE SEEING ME HE SAID I AM MOST USEFUL IN A CRISIS.

I AM NOT THAT GOOD AT PEACE TIME.

WE LAID OUT HIS LENGTHY CV AS THE GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF CANADA AND ENGLAND AND FINANCE MINISTER AND ECONOMIST AND SOMEBODY WHO SAYS HE HAS MANAGED THROUGH MULTIPLE FINANCIAL CRISES AND DO ANY CANADIANS FIND THEMSELVES IN A MOMENT OF EXISTENTIAL CRISIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE IS THE IMMEDIATE THING OF THE TARIFFS AND WHAT IT WILL DO FOR THE ECONOMY BUT NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT MR. TRUMP ATTENDS .

BUT THE MORE SERIOUSLY HE DID IT .

THE MORE WE WONDER I DON'T THINK ANYBODY THINKS HE COULD PULL OFF ANNEXATION EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO BUT SOME KIND OF ASSAULT ON OUR POVERTY.

SO PEOPLE SOBERED UP IN A HURRY.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS JUST HIS RESUME THAT WORKED IN HIS FAVOR BUT HIS PERSONA AND HE IS UNFLAPPABLE AND IN SOME WAYS AN ANTI-POLITICIAN ALTHOUGH I THINK WE DISCOVERED HE HAD CERTAIN TALENTS.

WHEN PEOPLE WERE COMPARING HIM TO HIS OPPONENT WHO IS MORE OF AN ATTACK DOG POLITICIAN, I THINK WHAT HURT HIM IS A LITTLE BIT TO TRUMPY AND HE IS NOT MR. TRUMP AND DIFFERENT IN MANY IMPORTANT WAYS BUT SOME OF THE RHETORIC AND CONSTITUENCIES HE WOULD WINK AT MADE ENOUGH PEOPLE WONDER WHAT HE REALLY BE IN FOR THE FIGHT THE WAY MR. CARNEY SEEM TO BE.

>> AND YET IT SEEMED TO WORK BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME INTO THE PICTURE OR DOMINATED IT AS MUCH AS HE DID.

AND YOU SAY THE PARTY OF CHANGE WERE CAUGHT FLAT FOOTED BY THE SERIES OF SEISMIC CHANGES OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

NOT ONLY MR. TRUMP TURNING HIS RHETORICAL GUNS ON CANADA BUT THE RESIGNATION OF MR. TRUDEAU AND HIS REPLACEMENT BY MR. CARNEY AND THEIR 25% LEAD IN THE POLL SWUNG TO A LIBERAL LEAD BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN EVEN BEGAN.

WITH THE CONSERVATIVES HAVE DONE BETTER IF THERE HAD BEEN A DIFFERENT CANDIDATE OTHER THAN PIERRE POILIEVRE, WHO, AS YOU NOTE, CANADIANS TOOK A DISLIKING TO WHEN THEY SAW SO MANY SIMILARITIES BETWEEN HIM AND DONALD TRUMP?

>> I THINK IT IS CERTAINLY ARGUABLE.

IT ISN'T A GIVEN THAT THE TRUMP TRAP WOULD'VE BEEN TO THE LIBERALS BENEFIT YOU CAN IMAGINE IF YOU HAD A CONSERVATIVE LEADER THAT PEOPLE FELT REASSURED BY OR A UNIFIER YOU CAN IMAGINE TURNING TO HIM IN A CRISIS.

THAT THEY DIDN'T TO PIERRE POILIEVRE.

BUT THE CONSERVATIVES ACTUALLY HELD THEIR VOTE PRETTY WELL AT 42% OF THE VOTE.

THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT WELL FOR 30 ODD YEARS WITH THE POPULAR VOTE.

BUT WHAT REALLY DID THEM AND WAS ALL OF THESE SMALL PARTIES TO THE LEFT OF THE LIBERALS BASICALLY COLLAPSED IN THE FACE OF THIS THREAT AND MOST VOTERS DESERTED THEM FOR THE LIBERALS BECAUSE THEY FELT THEY WERE THE STRONGER DEFENDER OF CANADA AND YOU CAN SAY THAT PIERRE POILIEVRE WAS UNLUCKY BUT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T TRUST HIM BUT THEY INSTEAD WENT FOR THE LIBERALS.

THEY MAY HAVE STAYED HOME OR STAYED WITH THE ORIGINAL PARTY IF THEY WERE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THEM BUT IT CREATED THIS CRISIS MENTALITY THAT WE HAVE TO NOT JUST STOP MR. TRUMP BUT ALSO KEEP PIERRE POILIEVRE.

>> BUT YET PART OF THE CAMPAIGN THAT PREDATED THE TRUMP FACTOR AND THAT IS THE COST OF LIVING, HOUSING, AFFORDABILITY, THAT ALSO EXISTS FOR CANADIANS.

NOW YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU DO HAVE A PARTY THAT WON SURPRISINGLY, BUT NOT THE MAJORITY.

HOW MUCH LEEWAY, HOW MUCH TIME, WILL CANADIANS AFFORD MARK CARNEY ON THE CAMPAIGN PROMISES ?

>> IT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

WE MAY BE HEADED INTO A BAD ECONOMIC SITUATION AS A RESULT OF MR. TRUMP AND WE HAD SOME DIFFICULTIES EVEN BEFORE MR. TRUMP WHICH IS PART OF THE REASON LIBERALS WERE IN SO MUCH TROUBLE.

IF WE GET INTO A RECESSION OR WORSE, NOBODY LIKES TO BE EMPOWERED IN THOSE MOMENTS.

MAYBE THEY SAY HE IS DOING HIS BEST BECAUSE MR. TRUMP WILL GET SOME LEEWAY EARLY ON.

BUT, LOOK, PEOPLE ARE IN NO MOOD FOR GAMES PLANE.

ANY GOVERNMENT LEADER OR OPPOSITION WHO SEEM TO BE PLANE POLITICS IN USUAL IN THE FACE OF THIS CRISIS WILL PAY THE PRICE.

I THOUGHT THE SPEECHES ON ELECTION NIGHT VERY STATESMANLIKE .

EVERYBODY WAS TRYING TO LOOK LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO RISE ABOVE LIKE THE PETTY INFIGHTING.

BUT WE WILL SEE HOW LONG IT LASTS.

THERE WILL BE A PREMIUM TO BE PAID BY THE PARTIES WHO CAN WORK TOGETHER AND PUT THE COUNTRY FIRST OR PEER TO DO SO.

SO I WOULDN'T FANCY ANYBODY'S CHANCES.

IT WILL BE A TOUGH TIME TO BE IN GOVERNMENT BUT BETTER IN GOVERNMENT AND OPPOSITION AND YOU HAVE MORE AGENCY TO COMMAND YOUR OWN FATE.

>> MARK CARNEY SAID HE WOULD TALK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THE COMING DAYS ABOUT A NEW ECONOMIC AND SECURITY DEAL.

BUT EVEN LISTENING TO HIS VICTORY SPEECH, THE FACT HE MENTIONS TIME AND AGAIN AS AMERICAN BETRAYAL THAT WE SHOULD NEVER FORGET THE LESSONS THAT CANADIANS ARE LEARNING FROM THAT.

HE HAS PLEDGED TO BOOST MILITARY SPENDING TO ALLAY SOME OF THE CONCERNS LINED OUT BUT HE SAID HE WON'T GO INTO THE ISSUE OF SOVEREIGNTY AND SOME OF THE OTHER MORE RADICAL STATEMENTS THAT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS CABINET HAVE BEEN EGGING ON.

I MENTIONED HIS CABINET .

BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO WHO JUST SUNDAY MORNING, THE DAY BEFORE THE ELECTION, WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

>> I THINK THE PRESIDENT STATED REPEATEDLY HE THINKS CANADA WOULD BE BETTER OFF AS A STATE.

HE HAS SAID THAT BASED ON WHAT HE WAS TOLD BY THE PREVIOUS PRIME MINISTER WHO SAID CANADA CAN'T SURVIVE UNLESS IT TREATS THE UNITED STATES UNFAIRLY AND TRADE.

>> SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE HE IS POLITICALLY BUY IN HIMSELF A LITTLE BIT OF WIGGLE ROOM BY BLAMING THIS SOLELY ON JUSTIN TRUDEAU.

NONETHELESS, TO HEAR THE SECRETARY OF STATE SAY THAT THIS IS REALLY NOT A COUNTRY THAT CAN SUSTAIN ITSELF WITH THESE UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES AS THEY DESCRIBE THEM, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENT TRUMP EVOLVING?

>> WELL, FIRST OF OCTOBER TWO SAY THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THE PRIME MINISTER SAID ANYTHING OF THE KIND LEAVING THAT ASIDE, THERE IS A SHORT-TERM AND LONG- TERM PROBLEM.

THE SHORT-TERM IS WARDING OFF THESE TARIFFS AND DEALING WITH WHATEVER MR. TRUMP DEVICES AND YOU ARE PLAYING DEFENSE.

WHAT A LONGER-TERM ISSUE WHICH IS CUT AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT IT TOO BLUNTLY, BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE CAN TRUST OUR LONG-TERM FRIENDS AND ALLIES ANYMORE.

EVEN AFTER MR. TRUMP IS GONE, SOMEBODY ELSE MAY REPLACE HIM WHO HAS SIMILAR AMBITIONS AND POLICIES.

I THINK THERE IS A REAL CONSENSUS IN THE COUNTRY THAT WE HAVE TO STRIKE OFF ANY MORE INDEPENDENT DIRECTION.

WE HAVE 75% OF OUR TRADE WITH UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW WHICH IS A GREAT BOON TO US IN MANY WAYS BUT IT LEAVES US EXPOSED AND VULNERABLE.

TO THE EXTENT WE CAN, PEOPLE WILL TRY TO SEE WHAT EXAMPLE WE CAN DIVERSIFY OUR TRADE.

CERTAINLY WE HAVE NEEDED TO STEP UP ON PLANE --PAYING FOR OUR OWN DEFENSE WHICH IS A TRUE AND VALID CRITICISM GOING BACK DECADES.

THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO LOOK TO NOT ONLY SPEND MORE IN DEFENSE BUT LOOKING FOR OTHER TYPES OF ALLIANCES AND TRADE ARRANGEMENTS THAN JUST WITH THE UNITED STATES AND EVEN JUST WITH NATO.

SO THIS IS A QUESTION OF COURSE THAT ALL DEMOCRACIES ARE LOOKING AT, TO WHAT EXTENT CAN WE TREAT THIS BUSINESS AS USUAL AND TO WHAT EXTENT IS THE UNITED STATES STILL OUR ALLY?

IS THAT A RESPONSIBLE AND RELIABLE ONE?

OR DO WE LOOK PAST AMERICA AND MAKING OTHER TYPES OF ARRANGEMENTS?

>> QUESTIONS NO ONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN SERIOUSLY A FEW MONTHS AGO AND YET HERE WE ARE.

ANDREW COYNE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM ACROSS THE BORDER UP NORTH.

THANK YOU.

ACTUALLY, I AM IN LONDON.

I AM ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONTINENT, BUT YOU GET MY POINT.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> MY PLEASURE.

> >> AFTER WEEKS OF PUBLIC, CUT AHEAD OF ISRAEL'S SECURITY AGENCY SAID HE WILL STEP DOWN.

THE CABINET OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU VOTED TO DISMISS THEM FROM THAT POST LAST MONTH BUT FACED BACKLASH WITH THAT MOVE WITH THE AGENCY INVESTIGATING THE AIDS OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU OVER ALLEGED IMPROPER DEALS WITH THEM.

THE HIGH COURT OF ISRAEL HALTED HIS FIRING MINISTERS IN THE GOVERNMENT ACCUSING HIM OF POLITICALLY MOTIVATED INVESTIGATIONS BUT IN SWORN TESTIMONY HE SAID THE PRIME MINISTER EXPECT DID PERSONAL LOYALTY.

WE HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS STORY AND WE ARE JOINED FROM TEL AVIV.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AS WE SAID, THERE IS NO LOVE LOST BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND ROMAN BAR THIS ERUPTED OVER THIS INVESTIGATION THAT IS BEING DUMPED AS CUTTER GAIT .

WALK US BACK ON WHY THAT IS AN IMPORTANT STORY FOR US TO KNOW ABOUT .

>> FIRST OF ALL THE ANIMOSITY BETWEEN ROMAN BAR AND BENJAMIN NETANYAHU GOES BACK TO OCTOBER SEVEN PLANE AND A COMPLICATED BLAME GAME BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM AND THE IDEA OF THE CHIEF OF STAFF INVOLVED AND THE POLICY HAS BEEN TO BLAME HIS UNDERLINGS WEATHER IT WAS BARR OR THE FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF WHAT IS HAPPENED ON OCTOBER SEVEN OR THE FACT THAT THE TROOPS AND SECURITY AGENCIES WERE NOT ON HIGH ALERT WHEN HAMAS STRUCK.

ON TOP OF THIS , AS YOU SAID CAME THE SCANDAL ABOUT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AGO WITH THE SECURITY AGENCY AND THE POLICE BEGAN INVESTIGATION OR INVESTIGATING ALLEGATIONS THAT THREE OF THE MEDIA ADVISORS WERE IN TOUCH WITH THOSE FROM QATAR AND ACCEPTED MONEY FROM QATAR FOR HELPING THEM IMPROVE THEIR IMAGE ABROAD WHILE THEY WERE WORKING FOR NETANYAHU.

QATAR ISN'T DEFINED AS AN ENEMY STATE BY ISRAEL AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS BEHIND THE SCENES AND QATAR IS FUNDING HAMAS FOR MANY YEARS.

OF COURSE, THE GENERAL , I WOULD SAY THE GENERAL TENDENCY AMONG ISRAELIS IS TO SEE QATAR AS PART OF THE FORCES IN THE REGION WHO WERE INVOLVED OR AT LEAST TO BLAME FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON OVER SEVEN.

THIS IS EXTREMELY DAMAGING FOR NETANYAHU AND WHILE THEY KEEP INVESTIGATING THE ISSUE.

>> THE FIRING LED TO THE PETITION TO THE SUPREME COURT AND BOTH MEN HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED RATHER DAMNING AFFIDAVITS ACCUSING EACH OTHER OF QUITE SCANDALOUS THINGS.

BARR HAS ACCUSED THE PRIME MINISTER OF PRESSURING HIM UNLAWFULLY FOR PERSONAL AND POLITICAL REASONS AND ESSENTIALLY DESCRIBING AN AUTOCRAT IN THE MAKING.

THE PRIME MINISTER DESCRIBED HIM AS UNPROFESSIONAL AND ACCUSES HIM OF WANTING TO BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT.

IS THERE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT EITHER ONE OF THOSE CLAIMS?

BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THE PREDECESSORS OF BARR HAS SUPPORTED SOME OF HIS CLAIMS.

>> MUCH MORE THAN ONE OF THEM.

AT LEAST THREE OF THE LAST HEADS CAME OUT PUBLICLY AGAINST THE CONDUCT OF NETANYAHU AND BEHAVIOR AND HIS ATTITUDE TOWARD ISRAELI DEMOCRACY AND THE SAME GOES FOR THE FORMER CHIEF AND FORMER CHIEFS OF THE IDF .

THE MAJORITY OF THE LEADERS OF ISRAEL'S SECURITY AGENCIES AND THOSE WHO WORKED WITH NETANYAHU IN THE LATE 90s , MOST OF THESE PEOPLE CAME OUT PUBLICLY AGAINST THEM AND IN RECENT YEARS BRINGING ALL KINDS OF ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HIM.

SO IT IS A NEW THING AND BARR TOOK QUITE A FEW STEPS FORWARD WHILE DESCRIBING WHAT HAPPENED AND YET IT IS NOT A TOTAL SURPRISE.

HE'S A VERY EXPERIENCED POLITICIAN FIGHTING BACK AND NOW IN A BETTER SITUATION WHICH IS SOMEWHAT IMPROVED BECAUSE BARR HAS DECIDED TO RESIGN UNDER THE PRESSURE.

YOU MENTIONED THE PETITION TO THE SUPREME COURT THAT IT ISN'T REALLY CLEAR WHETHER THE COURT IS ABOUT TO DEAL WITH THIS SINCE BAR IS ANNOUNCING HER RESIGNATION IN JUNE 15 AND IS THERE A POINT IN DISCUSSING THIS AND MAKING A STATEMENT FROM THE SUPREME COURT.

THE OPPONENTS OF NETANYAHU WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE THE COURT TO INTERVENE AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS WOULD HAPPEN UNDER THE NEW CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> THIS LEADS TO THE QUESTION OF WHO WILL REPLACE RONEN BAR.

IS THIS SOMEBODY THE PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF CAN APPOINT , AND WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE SHIN BET?

>> THE PRIME MINISTER IS IN CHARGE OF THIS AND HE IS THE MAN WHO WILL APPOINT THE NEXT CHIEF OF SHIN BET ACCORDING TO ISRAELI LAWS.

AND YET THE PRIME MINISTER'S SITUATION IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED BEFORE.

HE IS UNPOPULAR.

THERE IS THIS WHOLE ONGOING DEBATE ABOUT THE ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE THE ISRAELI LEGAL SYSTEM WITH THE OPPOSITION TO NETANYAHU, THE PROTESTANT MOVEMENT DESCRIBED AS ANTIDEMOCRATIC STEPS.

BAR HAS PROPOSED TO KEEP THE TRADITION FROM THE PAST AND HIS TWO DEPUTIES ONE SERVING AND ONE FORMER DEPUTY, WOULD BE THE CANDIDATES TO REPLACE HIM.

NETANYAHU HASN'T AGREED TO THAT .

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF NAMES BEING FLOATED AND DISCUSSED .

IT IS NOT YET CLEAR.

THIS WILL BE A BIG DEAL.

NOT SO MUCH BECAUSE OF THE WAR WITH HAMAS IN GAZA BUT BECAUSE OF THE INTERNAL SITUATION AND THOSE FEARS THAT NETANYAHU MAY BE ACTING AGAINST THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND MAY BE TRYING TO CHANGE THE DEMOCRATIC CHARACTER OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

OF COURSE, HIS FOLLOWERS DENIED THAT, BUT MANY IN THE OPPOSITION AND MANY, AS I SAID CUT IN THE SECURITY AGENCIES, ACTUALLY SUSPECT THAT IS THE CASE.

>> LEADING THE QUESTION WHETHER ISRAEL IS ONCE AGAIN HEADING DOWN THE PATH TOWARD A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS AND IMPORTANT TO NOTE THERE IS NO CONSTITUTION IN ISRAEL, WHICH IN PART OF THE SITUATION AT GOLF.

WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT THE RESIGNATION OF BAR WAS INEVITABLE GIVEN WHAT HE ALREADY SAID, HIS FAILURES SURROUNDING THE ATTACKS OF OCTOBER SEVEN AND NOT PRE- MEDITATING THEM AND NOT STOPPING THEM AHEAD OF TIME.

IT APPEARS NOW THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS ON AN ISLAND BY HIMSELF IN TERMS OF OFFICIALS IN THE GOVERNMENT WHO HAVE YET TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY OR RESIGN.

INSTEAD, HE HAS OPTED TO RENEW MILITARY OPERATIONS IN GAZA .

REMINDER, THERE ARE STILL 59 HOSTAGES WHO REMAINED THERE AND CONCERN ABOUT CONTINUED AID BLOCKADE THAT HAS ENTERED ITS SECOND MONTH ON HUMANITARIAN GROUNDS.

YOU HEAR A LOT OF OPPOSITION FROM AROUND THE WORLD OF THAT.

TO WHAT EXTENT, IN YOUR VIEW, IS THIS RENEWED EFFORT IN THIS RENEWED OPERATION IN GAZA DRIVEN BY POLITICAL CALCULATIONS FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU OR ONCE AGAIN TO IMPLEMENT AND FINALIZE WHAT HE HAS LONG SAID THEIR GOAL IS, WHICH IS THE ELIMINATION OF HAMAS AND THE RETURN OF THE HOSTAGES?

>> AS USUAL IN ISRAEL IT IS THE COMBINATION OF THE TWO.

AND YET NETANYAHU IS FIGHTING FOR HIS POLITICAL AND LEGAL SURVIVAL AND TROUBLES FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

MOST ANY DECISION HE MADE SINCE OCTOBER SEVEN WAS TIED DEEPLY TO HIS POLITICAL FATE.

EVEN WHEN HE ANNOUNCES THAT THE ONLY REASON IS TO REACH A FINAL VICTORY AGAINST HAMAS, THAT ISN'T EXACTLY THE CASE.

HE HAS TO FIGHT FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL SURVIVAL AND MAKING POLITICAL CALCULATIONS AS WE SPEAK.

THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT A MILITARY OPERATION OR A RENEWED MILITARY OPERATION IN GAZA WOULDN'T IMPROVE OUR POSITION REGARDING THE POSSIBLE HOSTAGE DEAL.

BUT FOR NOW, BOTH THE GOVERNMENT AND THE ARMY'S TOP BRASS KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF INCREASING THE MILITARY PRESSURE AND, THEREFORE, FORCING HAMAS TO AGREE TO A NEW DEAL.

WE DIDN'T SEE THAT HAPPEN.

IT IS TRUE ISRAEL BEGAN STRIKING IN GAZA AGAIN SINCE MARCH 18 AND IT'S TRUE MANY PEOPLE ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE WERE KILLED AND SOME OF THEM HAMAS OPERATORS AND OTHERS GAZA RESIDENTS WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY KIND OF CHANGE OR FLEXIBILITY FROM THE HAMAS SITE.

HAMAS IS ACTUALLY STILL DEMANDING THAT THE WAR ENDS AND NOT READY FOR INTERIM DEALS IF THIS IS WHAT WE ARE SAYING PUBLICLY.

THEY DEMAND A FULL CEASE-FIRE AND A FULL ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL IN RETURN FOR THE RELEASE OF ALL OF THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

>> I BELIEVE THE PRIME MINISTER EVEN TODAY, WE SHOULD NOTE, ON THE EVE OF ISRAEL'S MEMORIAL DAY, A REALLY SOLEMN DAY FOLLOWED BY ISRAEL'S INDEPENDENCE DAY AND OTHERS THE PRIME MINISTER ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR DEDICATION TO BRINGING THE HOSTAGES HOME AND ALSO THE REALITY THAT THERE ARE FEWER AND FEWER WHO ARE STILL ALIVE OF THE 59 THAT ARE BELIEVED TO BE STILL HELD THERE CONFIRMED TO BE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME AND ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

> >> WE TURN NEXT TO THE WARNINGS OVER FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

IN 2024, NUMBERS OF WRITERS JAILED AROUND THE WORLD INCREASED FOR THE SIXTH YEAR RUNNING ACCORDING TO THE ANNUAL FREEDOM TO WRITE INDEX AND IT'S A WORRY HEADING HOME EVEN IN THE UNITED STATES AFTER MULTIPLE ARRESTS OF FOREIGN STUDENTS ON CAMPUSES AND A RISE IN BOOK BANNING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THE REPORT SAID THAT THROUGHOUT HISTORY THE TARGETING OF WRITERS HAS SERVED AS THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE AND IT IS THE PRIMARY CHARACTERISTIC OF AUTHORITARIAN STATE CENSORSHIP.

HE IS CO-CEO OF PENN AMERICA AND ALSO A NOVELIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE WRITTEN ARTS PROGRAM .

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

LET ME START WITH YOU, CLARICE.

GO BACK TO WHAT WE HEARD.

THE WRITERS ARE THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE.

WHY DO AUTHORITARIAN STATES COME TO AUTHORS HISTORICALLY ?

>> THANK YOU FOR HELPING US ON THE SHOW AND THANK YOU FOR WELCOMING MYSELF AND ALSO ADINA , WHO IS ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY VOICES OF CONTEMPORARY LEADERSHIP SAYING ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND WE TALK ABOUT THIS AT PENN AMERICA.

WRITERS ARE TRUTH TELLERS AND THE ONES WE TURN TO TO UNDERSTAND THE PAST AND UNDERSTAND OUR PRESENT BUT HOW WE MEET THE MOMENT AND HOW WE PREPARE FOR THE FUTURE.

THROUGH FICTION AND NONFICTION, WE KNOW THAT THROUGH HISTORY WRITERS ARE THE ONES WHO ARE ABLE TO CRACK OPEN THEN VERY COMPLEX ISSUES AND CHALLENGES AND QUESTIONS AND AUTHORITARIAN SNOW THAT WHEN THE TRUTH IS THERE THEY ARE RELYING ON FEAR AND MISINFORMATION.

IN OUR WORK THAT WE JUST PUBLISHED TODAY AROUND THE 100 DAYS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IT IS VERY CLEAR AND HE TALKS ON FREE EXPRESSION THAT WRITERS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH.

WRITING WORDS ARE BEING ATTACKED AND THEY ARE BEING BANNED.

WE TRACK 350 WORDS THAT ARE BEING BANNED LIKE WOMAN AND SO MANY COMMON WORDS THAT WE WANT TO USE LIKE DIVERSITY, BLACK.

I THINK THAT IS WHY THE WRITERS ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST ON THE FRONT LINE OR THE FIRST TO BE SILENCED OR CENSORED IN MOMENTS LIKE THESE.

>> AMONG THOSE LIST OF WORDS , IT HAS GROWN FROM 250 WORDS TO NOW 350 AND GIVEN WHAT THE PRESIDENT CAMPAIGNED ON AND GOING AFTER DEI INITIATIVES, IT IS IN A SURPRISE.

AND THERE YOU SEE IT THAT WORDS LIKE TRANSGENDER AND ABORTION ARE ON THE LIST BUT SO ARE WORDS LIKE WATER MANAGEMENT OR BIRTH.

CLARICE, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> WELL, I AM NOT SURE IF I CAN EXPLAIN THAT.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

I DO THINK THAT TO YOUR QUESTION I THINK IT IS A QUESTION OF ERASURE.

ERASURE OF WORDS MEANS ALSO THAT THE INFORMATION IS NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE.

IN ORDER TO EMPOWER CITIZENS BUT ALSO PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS, READERS AND OUR WRITERS AT PEN AMERICA , IN ORDER TO EMPOWER THEM FOR A DECISION ON WHO YOU VOTE FOR OR DECISIONS ABOUT HOW TO CAMPAIGN AND WHAT YOU ADVOCATE FOR.

IF YOU REMOVE THE WORDS OR LANGUAGE OR REMOVE THIS POWER WE ALL HAVE TO SPEAK UP AND SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER AND FIGHT FOR OUR FREEDOMS INCLUDING FREE EXPRESSION OR FREEDOM TO WRITE OR SPEAK AND THE FREEDOM TO THINK AND IMAGINE AND THE FREEDOM TO READ WHAT WE WANT.

ALSO, IT IS NO SURPRISE DURING THESE LAST FEW YEARS YOU HAD A CONTINUOUS RISE OF BOOK BANS AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU TAKE AWAY THE INFORMATION AND KNOWLEDGE.

>> I WANT TO BRING IT INTO THIS CONVERSATION.

YOUR STORY IS FASCINATING AND ONE THAT REALLY MADE AMERICA FOR SO MANY YEARS THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY A UNIQUE COUNTRY AMONG OTHERS AND THAT IS IT WAS A HOME FOR REFUGEES, FOR PEOPLE ESCAPING PROSECUTION TO FIND A NEW LIFE HERE.

YOUR FAMILY CAME FROM ETHIOPIA ALSO ESCAPING PERSECUTION.

YOU CAME AS A YOUNG CHILD.

I AM CURIOUS TO GET YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT YOUR FAMILY EXPERIENCED.

>> YES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US AND A PLEASURE TO BE HERE WITH YOU AS WELL, CLARICE.

I REMEMBER WHEN WE FIRST CAME HERE , I REMEMBER MY FATHER TELLING ME THAT HE NEVER IMAGINED NEVER LEAVING ETHIOPIA AND THAT WAS NEVER PART OF THE PLAN THAT HE ALWAYS THOUGHT HE WOULD GROW OLD AND RAISE A FAMILY THAT THEY WERE BORN AND RAISED IN BUT THERE WAS A REVOLUTION AND THE GOVERNMENT FELL.

THE COUNTRY HAD REMAINED STABLE FOR ROUGHLY 2000 YEARS.

MY FATHER USED TO TELL ME, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD NEVER EXPECT THAT COULD HAPPEN IN AMERICA, BUT , BELIEVE ME, I CAN.

I THOUGHT HAPPEN IN MY COUNTRY AND NO REASON A SIMILAR EVENT COULDN'T OCCUR SOMEWHERE ELSE.

WE CAME TO AMERICA SOMEWHAT RELUCTANTLY BUT ALSO CAME AND FOUND WE HAD A COUNTRY THAT WAS MORE THAN WILLING TO UNABLE TO WELCOME US AND THAT ABILITY TO WELCOME US AND GIVE US THE SPACE AND FREEDOM TO BUILD HOMES, NEW LIVES COULDN'T HAVE BEEN MORE TRANSFORMATIVE NOT ONLY FOR OURSELVES BUT ALSO FOR MY CHILDREN, WHO ARE ALSO HERE AND ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS.

SO WATCHING THIS TRANSFORMATION HAPPEN, WHERE NOT ONLY ARE IMMIGRANTS SEEN AS SOME THAT ARE HOSTILE BUT ACTIVELY BEING PERSECUTED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND WE ARE WATCHING THESE FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS THAT WE IMAGINED IT TO BE EQUALLY SHARED STRIPPED FROM US NOT ONLY BECAUSE IMMIGRANTS ARE THE EASIEST TARGET BUT ALSO BECAUSE IT IS A PRECURSOR TO WHAT WILL CERTAINLY COME FOR THE US CITIZENS NEXT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I WATCH THIS STUNNED OF SOMETHING MY FATHER SAID COULD HAPPEN BEGINNING TO HAPPEN.

>> YES LESS THAN ONE GENERATION ALSO.

SHE SPOKE WITH A NUMBER OF WRITERS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT AND THEIR VIEWS ON IT AND I WILL PLAY SOME EXCERPTS FROM IT .

HERE IS WHAT THEY SAID.

>> WE ARE ALL SCARED.

THE WRITERS ARE SCARED , THE STUDENTS ARE SCARED AND IT IS ALMOST AS IF WE HAVE BEEN A PUNCH TO THE BACK OF THE BRAIN AND I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING IS FRIGHTENING AND STRANGE.

I HAVE GONE BACK TO READ ABOUT 1930s GERMANY AND I THINK I WANT TO LEARN FROM HISTORY AND BETTER UNDERSTAND THIS PRESENT TIME.

IN SOME WAYS I AM UNPREPARED FOR THIS HAPPENING IN AMERICA.

>> CLARICE, ARE THESE OUTLIER CONCERNS YOU ARE HEARING OR MORE EXTREMIST VIEWS?

OR TREPIDATION?

OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS ACTUALLY REPRESENTATIVE OF HOW THE MAJORITY OF WRITERS YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO ON THIS ISSUE AT THIS POINT?

>> I WOULD SAY IT'S ONLY PART OF THE STORY.

YES.

WE LIVE IN A CLIMATE OF FEAR.

I WOULD SAY THAT WRITERS ALSO ARE READY TO PUSH BACK.

AND THERE ARE MANY WAYS THAT THEY HAVE.

THERE ARE MANY TOOLS THEY HAVE AT THEIR DISPOSAL TO ACTUALLY PUSH BACK AND ACTUALLY BE PART OF THIS RESISTANCE MOVEMENT AGAINST FEAR.

IT IS THIS MOMENT WHERE WE NEED SOLIDARITY.

WE NEED COMMUNITY.

I LOVE THAT SHE IS SAYING SHE IS GOING BACK AND YOU READ ABOUT THE PAST AND HISTORICAL EVENT SO WE CAN LEARN HOW WE MOVE FORWARD.

I DO THINK THEY ARE NOT OUTLIERS BUT PART OF THE STORY.

I WANT TO SAY THAT THE WAY THEY ARE ABLE TO INSPIRE US IS WHEN WE ARE ABLE TO BRING THEM TOGETHER LIKE DURING THE VOICES FESTIVAL WE ARE ABOUT TO START TOMORROW THAT WE HAVE MORE THAN 80 INCLUDING THOSE YOU JUST HEARD FROM WHO WILL BE PRESENTING ON OPENING NIGHT THAT I WILL BE MODERATING AND WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS MOMENT AND THE ROLE OF NOVELIST AND WRITERS AND IN A MOMENT OF POLITICAL CRISIS AND GLOBAL CRISIS.

AND HOW WE WRESTLE BETWEEN THE ROLE OF THE WRITER AND ADVOCACY .

HOW DO WE RECONCILE THIS AND MAYBE THERE IS NO TENSION BETWEEN WRITING AND ACTIVISM.

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE I HAVE HEARD FROM MANY WRITERS WHO ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN TAKING ACTIONS AND SPEAKING UP, GATHERING AND COMMUNITIES AND INSPIRING PEOPLE TO WHETHER THIS MOMENT AND NOT LOSE HOPE.

>> AMONG THOSE COMMUNITIES WHERE ACTION AND SPEAKING OUT AND FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION HAVE LONG BEEN CHAMPIONED ESPECIALLY IN THIS COUNTRY AND COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND WE NOTED YOU ARE A TEACHER HERE BUT I WONDER HOW YOU ARE ADJUSTING TO THIS NEW REALITY .

ARE YOU FINDING THAT SOME OF THOSE AROUND YOU ARE CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY SELF CENSORING?

WHAT ARE THE CONCERNS THAT YOU ARE FEELING AND YOU HEAR FROM COLLEAGUES AND STUDENTS QUITE >> YES.

I THINK IT IS VERY EASY TO PORTRAY COLLEGE CAMPUSES AS SOMEHOW THESE ELITE SPACES OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY BUT OF COURSE WE ARE MICROCOSMS OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN COMMUNITIES ALL OVER AMERICA.

SO THERE IS ANXIETY AND TENSION AND A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT WHAT CAN AND CAN'T BE SAID.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I THINK AS CLARICE NOTED THERE IS A RESILIENCE AND A SENSE THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST ARE THE VERY THINGS UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW AND NOT ONLY THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION BUT EVEN MORE CRITICALLY THE FREEDOM TO THINK.

COLLEGE CAMPUSES ARE PLACES THAT THRIVE AND DEPENDENT ON THIS EXCHANGE OF IDEAS AND THE ABILITY TO ENGAGE WITH LANGUAGE.

EVEN AS WE UNDERSTAND AND FEEL THE TENSION WE FEEL MAY BE NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO SAY SOMETHING.

I THINK WE KNOW THAT IF WE BEGIN TO SILENCE OURSELVES IN THESE SPACES, THERE IS VERY LITTLE TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

THESE ARE THE PLACES WHERE IDEAS HAVE TO CONTINUE TO SURVIVE AND MUST BE SHARED.

EVEN THOUGH WE KNEW THAT WOULD COME WITH A RISK PERHAPS.

THERE IS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION THAT SHOULD BE FREE BUT DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL BE EASY.

I THINK WHAT WE SEE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES RIGHT NOW ARE FACULTY AND STUDENTS AND ADMINISTRATORS ALIGNING AND STANDING TOGETHER AND MAKING SURE THEY CAN REPRESENT THESE VALUES OF EXPRESSION, OF COMPLEXITY AND IDEAS THAT DESERVE TO BE CONSIDERED AND DEBATED EVEN IF THERE IS AN IN AND MINISTRATION TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

>> YOU SHOULD NOTE THAT PEN AMERICA HAS WRITERS GATHERING IN THE UNITED STATES FOR THE WORLD RACES FESTIVAL AND WHAT YOU HEAR FROM THESE WRITERS TRAVELING HERE AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THEIR CONCERNS EVEN FROM A LOGISTICAL STANDPOINT ABOUT GETTING VISAS OR WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA OR IF THEY ARE ON ANYONE'S RADAR .

THIS IS A REALLY DIFFERENT ERA.

>> IT IS A DIFFERENT ERA.

I ALSO WANT TO NOTE THAT FOR SOME WRITERS DEPENDING ON THEIR IDENTITY OR WHETHER THEY WERE ALREADY PERSECUTED, THEY ARE VERY USED TO HAVING CARE AND BEING VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW THEY MOVE ACROSS BORDERS.

THIS YEAR, AS YOU SAID, IT IS TRUE.

IT FEELS A LITTLE BIT MORE DIRE .

WE HAVE WORKED REALLY HARD WITH OUR TEAM TO PREPARE EVERYBODY WHO IS TRAVELING FROM OUTSIDE OF THE U. S. BUT ALSO WITHIN OUR BORDERS.

SO INTERNATIONAL WRITERS WHO ARE PARTICULARLY AT RISK BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

WE HAVE MANAGED TO EQUIP THEM WITH INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED AND WE ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH THAT THE WRITERS THAT WE WANT TO HAVE HERE THIS YEAR WITH US ARE ABLE TO TRAVEL AND WE ARE SO HAPPY TO BE ABLE TO WELCOME THEM IN NEW YORK CITY AND IN LOS ANGELES.

WE HAVE A FEW WHO WILL BE JOINING US VIRTUALLY BECAUSE OF THESE CONCERNS.

I AM NOT TRYING TO GLOSS OVER THE FACTS AND THE REALITY OF THIS THAT SOME WRITERS HAVE TO BE A LITTLE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT JEOPARDIZING THE ABILITY TO TRAVEL ACROSS BORDERS.

>> YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE THEM AS YOU NOTED.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE THE CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> THIS WEEK MARKS 50 YEARS SINCE THE FALL OF SAIGON WHICH ENDED TWO DECADES OF BRUTAL WAR IN VIETNAM AND A REALIZATION BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM AND TRADE TALKS ARE ONGOING AFTER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IMPOSED ONE OF ITS HIGHEST RECIPROCAL TARIFFS AND HIM.

HE WAS THE AMBASSADOR THERE DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AND JOINS WALTER ISAACSON ON WHERE THIS COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP IS HEADED NEXT.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME TO THE SHOW CUT AMBASSADOR.

>> THINK YOU AND WHAT AN HONOR TO BE HERE.

>> WE ARE NOW AT THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

I DO THINK THEY HAVE INVITED SOME U. S. OFFICIALS AND REPRESENTATIVES TO BE PART OF THE HONORING OF THAT EVENT IN VIETNAM.

IT IS COMPLICATED.

SHOULD U. S. OFFICIALS BE THERE?

AND IS A FORMER AMBASSADOR, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

>> BEFORE I ADDRESS THAT VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION SQUARELY, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO STEP BACK AND REFLECT ON HOW JUST EXTRAORDINARY IT IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND VIETNAM HAVE BUILT THIS PARTNERSHIP 50 YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE WAR.

I WOULD LIKE TO START THERE.

IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY AFTER THE PAIN AND SUFFERING, THE BRUTALITY OF THAT WAR, THAT TODAY, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS MORE POPULAR THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AND WE HAVE BEEN PARTNERS AND FRIENDS COOPERATING ON A BROAD RANGE OF ISSUES.

BUT ACHIEVING THAT CERTAINLY WAS NOT EASY.

AND I THINK A KEY PART OF BUILDING THIS EXTRAORDINARY ACHIEVEMENT OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS HAS BEEN THE WORK WE HAVE DONE ON LEGACY AND HUMANITARIAN ISSUES AND DEALING ON BOTH SIDES WITH AGENT ORANGE AND CLEANING UP .

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF WORK AS WELL ON ADDRESSING OUR SENSITIVE HISTORY AND RESPECTFUL WAYS.

SO THAT IS THE FRAMEWORK I BRING TO THIS CURRENT DEBATE OVER WHETHER THE UNITED STATES SHOULD PARTICIPATE IN THIS APRIL 30 COMMEMORATION.

I THINK IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, WALTER, AS WELL.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE, A U. S. AMBASSADOR HAS NEVER PARTICIPATED IN THESE APRIL 30 COMMEMORATIONS BEFORE.

I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY BEEN INVITED.

APRIL 30 COMMEMORATION IS VIETNAM'S ONLY CELEBRATION OF ITS VICTORY IN THE WAR AND ITS VICTORY OVER NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES BUT SOUTH VIETNAM AS WELL.

THAT HAVE NOT BEEN THE FOCUS OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS.

WE ALWAYS FOCUSED ON THE JULY 11 ANNIVERSARY OF THE NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS.

SO I THINK WHEN I LOOK AT THIS, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, EVEN WITH THE EXTRAORDINARY PROGRESS WE HAVE MADE THAT THESE ISSUES RELATED TO OUR HISTORY REMAIN EXCEPTIONALLY SENSITIVE EVEN 50 YEARS ON AND ESPECIALLY AFTER YOU DO SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE FINAL DECISION MAY OR MAY NOT BE REGARDING AMERICA'S PARTICIPATION .

I THINK IT IS A GREAT SIGN WE WERE INVITED.

I CAN ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE ISSUES ARE SENSITIVE ESPECIALLY OUTLINED HERE BECAUSE IT WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME FOR US TO ATTEND VIETNAM'S OWN CEREMONIES.

WE ARE CELEBRATING MANY ANNIVERSARIES THIS YEAR.

IT ISN'T JUST THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE END OF THE WAR BUT THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF U. S. VIETNAM TIES AND THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF THE COOPERATION BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHI MINH AND VIETNAM IN 1945 DURING WORLD WAR II.

I AM CONFIDENT WE WILL HAVE A TREMENDOUS CELEBRATION OF THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF OUR RELATIONSHIP AT A MINIMUM.

I HOPE WE CAN FIND A WAY TO PERHAPS RESPECTFULLY AND CAREFULLY PARTICIPATE IN THESE APRIL 30 COMMEMORATIONS.

IF WE DON'T, I DON'T THINK IT WILL HAVE A TREMENDOUS IMPACT AND I AM CONFIDENT WE WILL GET THERE SOMEDAY.

>> YOU WERE AMBASSADOR TO VIETNAM DURING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

>> YES, I WAS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THIS HISTORIC PROCESS AFTER 50 YEARS AND BECOMING SO CLOSE TO THE UNITED STATES AND PART OF IT WERE THINGS YOU DID INCLUDING, I THINK , VISIT A NORTH VIETNAMESE CEMETERY FOR THE FIRST TIME.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT PROCESS OF HEALING THOSE WOUNDS.

>> THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT.

I FOUND IT EXTRAORDINARY THAT DURING MY TENURE AS AMBASSADOR, AGAIN, ALMOST 45 YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE WAR THAT NO AMERICAN AMBASSADOR HAD EVER VISITED A NORTH VIETNAMESE MILITARY CEMETERY OR MARTYRS CEMETERY.

REQUESTED PERMISSION TO VISIT THAT IN VIETNAM AND I THOUGHT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

MY APPROACH TO THAT , DRAWING ON OF COURSE THE TREMENDOUS WORK DONE BY MY MANY PREDECESSORS AND AMBASSADORS TO VIETNAM WAS TO TRY TO SHOW GREAT RESPECT FOR THOSE ON ALL SIDES WHO HAD SACRIFICED IN THE NAME OF PATRIOTISM.

OF COURSE, I VISITED THE VIETNAM WAR MEMORIAL HERE IN THE UNITED STATES MANY TIMES.

BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO MAKE A VISIT TO A NORTH VIETNAMESE MILITARY CEMETERY AS WELL.

I ALSO VISITED MULTIPLE TIMES THE MARTYRS CEMETERY IN SOUTH VIETNAM WHICH IS THE ARMY OF VIETNAM CEMETERY.

I WAS TRYING TO SHOW THAT EVEN THESE MANY DECADES AFTER THE WAR THAT IT IS STILL MEANINGFUL TO SHOW RESPECT TO ALL SIDES.

IT ISN'T TO APOLOGIZE.

IT IS SIMPLY TO SAY, THESE ARE SYMBOLIC ACTS THAT SHOW BOTH SIDES HAVE MOVED PAST THE TRAGEDY OF THE WAR EVEN AS WE DON'T FORGET THE LESSONS WE HAVE LEARNED.

WE CAN RESPECT ONE ANOTHER.

I DID DRAW INSPIRATION IN PART FROM THE AMAZING ENCOUNTERS I WITNESSED BETWEEN VETERANS ON BOTH SIDES.

IT IS INCREDIBLY MOVING TO SEE WHEN VETERANS FROM THE U. S. GET TOGETHER AND EVEN SOMETIMES UNITS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST EACH OTHER AND WHAT I WITNESSED WASN'T RANK OR ENTITY BUT A TREMENDOUSLY EMOTIONAL ENCOUNTER IN A VERY POSITIVE AND HUMAN WAY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A TECHNICAL QUESTION .

DID YOU HAVE TO GET PERMISSION FROM THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE WHEN YOU WENT TO THAT CEMETERY?

>> AT THAT POINT I DIDN'T .

IT WAS MY ASSESSMENT AT THAT POINT THAT WHAT I WAS PROPOSING TO DO WAS IMPORTANT AND EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE FIRST TIME, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SO SENSITIVE THAT IT REQUIRED ME TO GET PERMISSION IN ADVANCE.

I WILL SAY THAT SOMETHING AS SIGNIFICANT AS THE FIRST EVER AMERICAN AMBASSADOR TO PARTICIPATE IN THE APRIL 30 CEREMONY, I THINK IT IS QUITE NATURAL AND SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE A DECISION BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF GEORGE W BUSH, I WAS ASKED TO BE COCHAIR OF THE U. S. VIETNAM DIALOGUE AND CLEANING UP THE DIOXIN AT THE AIRBASE THAT YOU TALK ABOUT AND SUSAN FOUNDATION FUNDED IT AND HE WAS MY COUNTERPART THERE.

WE FELT THAT WAS A WAY TO REDUCE THE TENSIONS FROM THE WAR.

IS THAT GOING TO CONTINUE HOW THE CLEANUP OF THE AGENT ORANGE AND DIOXIN?

>> I WAS TOLD IT WILL AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT IS THE CASE.

AGAIN, I THINK IT IS VITALLY IMPORTANT THAT THAT WORK CONTINUE.

I USED TO ASK WALTER AND MANY FRIENDS AND THINKERS AND STRATEGY ERRORS AND OFFICIALS THAT HOW IS WE ACHIEVED THIS ACCOMPLISHMENT OF BECOMING FRIENDS AND PARTNERS AFTER THIS BRUTAL WAR AND I HEARD MANY INTERESTING ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION INCLUDING THE FACT THAT THE VIETNAMESE FRIENDS THEY SAY THEY LIVE IN A ROUGH NEIGHBORHOOD AND AFTER A MILLENNIA OF STRUGGLES INCLUDING AGAINST THEIR BIG NORTHERN NEIGHBOR THEY DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF HOLDING GRUDGES AND OTHER FACTORS BUT ALMOST TO A PERSON THEY WOULD SAY THAT AMERICA'S LEGACY WAS VITAL TO THAT AS WELL.

IN THIS PLACE I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALLY RECOGNIZE AND I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE WORK AND LEADERSHIP THAT YOU AND MANY AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE CONTRIBUTED IN THE SPACE AND THINK ABOUT THE AMAZING WORK THAT SENATOR LEAHY AND OTHERS DID TO LEAD THIS EFFORT.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT I THINK IT WAS VERY CLEVERLY DONE THAT THIS ASSISTANCE FOR EXAMPLE FOCUSED ON REMEDIATION BOTH IN DENIAL AND THE VIETNAM AIRBASES OUTSIDE OF CHI MINH CITY.

BUT THERE IS ALSO WORK DONE TO TREAT THE VIETNAMESE WITH DISABILITIES IRRESPECTIVE OF CAUSE BUT IN THE PROVINCES THAT THEY MOST HEAVILY SPRAYED BY AGENT ORANGE IN THE WAR AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS QUITE A REASONABLE AND ELEGANT WAY TO FIND A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.

OF COURSE, IF YOU FOCUS ON THIS, IT WAS REALLY INSPIRING TO ME TO SEE THAT REALLY ON BOTH SIDES IT WAS OUR WARRIORS WHO LET US BACK TO PEACE.

>> THE BIG ISSUE RIGHT NOW IN RELATION TO THE VIETNAM ISSUE IS TARIFFS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PUT ALMOST 50% TERRACE OR ANNOUNCED IT -- TARIFFS AND THEY HAVE A VERY LARGE TRADE DEFICIT.

HOW DO YOU SEE YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS ISSUE?

>> IT IS A FANTASTIC SESSION.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS IS THE QUESTION OF THE DAY THAT BOTH SIDES HAVE AS WE SPEAK.

IT ISN'T AN OVERSTATEMENT TO SAY THAT HANOI WAS SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF TERROR PLACED ON THEM.

THEY RESPONDED IN A PRACTICAL WAY.

I THINK OUR VIETNAM NINE -- VIETNAMESE COUNTERPARTS ARE PRACTICAL.

I THINK AFTER THE SHOCK AND BEWILDERMENT AND ANGER FELT IN PRIVATE THAT OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS QUICKLY REGROUPED AND CAME BACK TO THE TABLE I THINK IN CLASSIC VIETNAMESE FASHION.

AND NOW VIETNAM IS ONE OF THE PRIORITY COUNTRIES FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WITH WHOM WE ARE TRYING TO NEGOTIATE A TRADE DEAL.

I AM TOLD THERE WILL BE A VIETNAMESE TRADE DELEGATION IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK .

I THINK OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS ARE TRYING TO THINK THROUGH IN PRACTICAL WAYS HOW THEY ADDRESS THE CONCERNS OF THE U. S. INSIDE.

SO THEY THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE INCREASING U. S. PURCHASES AND CHALLENGES IN THE MARKET AND THINKING ABOUT INVESTMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK THAT IS THE WAY TO APPROACH THIS IN A PRACTICAL WAY.

>> DON'T YOU THINK THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A TRADE DEFICIT INHERENT IN THAT RELATIONSHIP ?

>> WITHOUT A DOUBT , WALTER.

FIRST OF ALL, MOST TRADE DEFICITS, AND CERTAINLY NOT ONE OF THAT SIZE , CAN BE SOMEHOW QUICKLY REDUCED.

OF COURSE, THERE IS DEBATE AMONG ECONOMISTS WHETHER THAT SHOULD BE THE OBJECTIVE OF ANYONE.

WHAT I THINK OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS LEARNED FROM THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS THAT IF THEY CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY CAN TO REDUCE THE DEFICIT BY INCREASING PURCHASES OF AMERICAN AIRCRAFT AND LNG AND GRAIN ALIKE AND IF THEY ARE FIXING THEIR EXISTING ACCESS BARRIERS AND ALSO SUPPRESSING SOME OF THE TRADE OR INVEST IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK THEY CAN MAKE PROGRESS.

MY BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I THINK IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ONCE A TRADE DEAL WITH VIETNAM, THEN A DEAL CAN BE HAD BECAUSE VIETNAM IS READY TO NEGOTIATE AND CUT THAT DEAL.

ONE FINAL REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION HERE TOO IS IN THE U. S. SIDE WILL OBVIOUSLY PUSH VERY AGGRESSIVELY TO REDUCE ANY TRANSSHIPMENT OF CHINESE GOODS VIA VIETNAM.

IT WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR VIETNAM TO CRACKDOWN ON THAT AS WELL.

IF THERE WILL BE A DEAL WITH VIETNAM, IT CAN'T SERVICE THE BACK DOOR FOR CHINESE GOODS LOOKING TO EVADE U. S. LEVIES ON TARIFFS .

>> THE UNITED STATES LARGEST TRADE PARTNER IS CHINA.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WONDER IS WHETHER THESE TARIFFS BEING THREATENED BY THE UNITED STATES WILL PUSH VIETNAM CLOSER TO CHINA OR WHETHER VIETNAM DOESN'T WANT THAT AND FRIENDLY WITH THE UNITED STATES AND WHETHER THE UNITED STATES CAN MAKE A DEAL TO WEAN VIETNAM FROM CHINA'S ORBIT ?

WHAT YOU THINK?

>> I THINK VIETNAM IS ONE OF THE MOST SKILLED BALANCERS ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED.

IT COMES FROM THIS STRONG STRATEGIC SENSE AND GREAT FOCUS ON PRACTICALITY.

I DO THINK THAT VIETNAM, OVER THE MILLENNIA, HAS REALLY STRUGGLED TO MAINTAIN ITS IDENTITY AND INDEPENDENCE .

CERTAINLY, IF YOU LOOK AT VIETNAMESE HISTORY, MUCH OF THAT STRUGGLE WITH AGAINST CHINA AND ITS NORTHERN NEIGHBOR.

THE VIETNAMESE ARE ALSO VERY PRACTICAL.

THEY KNOW CHINA IS AN IMPORTANT COUNTERPART .

AGAIN, VIETNAM IS ALWAYS STRIVING FOR BALANCE AND CHINA MAY BE ITS LARGEST TRADE PARTNER.

BUT THE U. S. IS THEIR LARGEST EXPORT MARKET.

VIETNAM UPDATED THEIR PARTNERSHIP IN THE U. S. IN 2023 TO A COMPREHENSIVE STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP AND TOP-TIER WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA BUT OTHER KEY PARTNERS LIKE JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, AND INDIA AS WELL.

SO I DON'T SEE THE STRATEGIC GAINS AS BEEN TRYING TO PEEL THIS AWAY FROM CHINA.

I SEE THIS AS WE BELIEVE IT IS IN AMERICA'S INTEREST TO HAVE STRONG SUCCESSFUL SOVEREIGN PARTNERS AND IMPORTANT THAT WE PROVIDE THIS I THINK WITH THE ABILITY WHICH IS IN BOTH OF OUR INTERESTS TO MAINTAIN ITS BALANCE AND THE SOVEREIGNTY AND INDEPENDENCE AND NOT OVERLY INFLUENCED OR DOMINATED BY ANY COUNTRY WHETHER IT IS CHINA OR ANYONE ELSE.

>> CHINA'S PRESIDENT JUST VISITED HANOI .

WHAT HAPPENED IN THOSE MEETINGS?

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE NATURAL FOR THE PRESIDENT OF CHINA TO GO THERE AND AS WE DISCUSSED FOR VIETNAM, I AM SURE VIETNAM WAS MOTIVATED TO HOST CHINA BECAUSE IT IS LOOKING THE BALANCE WITH CHINA AND I THINK THEY WERE MOTIVATED TO TRAVEL NOT JUST TO HANOI BUT OTHER COUNTRIES IN SOUTH EAST ASIA BECAUSE CHINA IS PROBABLY TRYING TO PRESENT ITSELF AS A RESPONSIBLE ACTOR AND THE DEFENDER OF THE RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER AND I AM SURE THEY HAD SOME OPPORTUNITY TO ADVANCE THEIR STRATEGIC INTERESTS ACROSS THE REGION AS THERE IS CONCERN OVER UNITED STATES TARIFFS.

BUT REFLECT THE NON-VIETNAMESE HISTORY AND STRATEGIC THINKING BY THEM, I THINK THEY ARE SEEKING BALANCE NOT TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER BUT I WILL ALSO CLOSE HERE ON THE VISIT OF PRESIDENT XI JINPING THAT I THINK PRESIDENT XI JINPING CAME NOT ONLY WITH CARROTS STICKS AS WELL AND HE ISSUED A PUBLIC WARNING THAT NO COUNTRY SHOULD CUT A DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES THAT DISADVANTAGES CHINA'S INTEREST AND I AM SURE THAT WAS PART OF THE CONVERSATION AS WELL.

>> YOU ARE AND AMBASSADOR TO VIETNAM DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

HOW HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PRIORITIES CHANGED NOW WITH THE SECOND ADMINISTRATION?

>> WELL, WALTER, WHEN I WAS AMBASSADOR IN VIETNAM DURING THE ALMOST ENTIRE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND WAS THERE FOR HIS TWO VISITS TO VIETNAM , IN SOME WAYS THE PRIORITIES WERE QUITE SIMILAR.

WE MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS THAT TRADE ISSUES WERE AT THE FOREFRONT OF OUR RELATIONSHIP.

WE WORKED VERY AGGRESSIVELY TO INCREASE VIETNAMESE PURCHASES OF UNITED STATES GOODS AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY, TO REDUCE MARKET ACCESS AND NON- TARIFF TRADE BARRIERS TO COMPETE FAIRLY.

I THINK WHAT IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FOR ME AND I KNOW FOR OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS, I THINK THE SECOND TRUMP MINISTRATION, WE HAVE SEEN IT BEING MUCH MORE ORGANIZED AND SYSTEMATIC AND AGGRESSIVE IN IMPLEMENTING A RANGE OF MEASURES INCLUDING TARIFFS.

I THINK UNLIKE THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE DIALOGUE IN ADVANCE.

THERE HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCEMENT OF THESE AND THE CONCERN WAS ON THE PART OF THE VIETNAMESE AND OTHERS, WOULD THERE BE DIALOGUE NEGOTIATIONS TO DEAL WITH THOSE CONCERNS.

THE GOOD NEWS FOR ALL OF THE SHOCK CAUSED BY THE ANNOUNCEMENTS , I THINK THE VIETNAMESE ARE NOW CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC THAT THEY HAVE CHANNELS WITH WASHINGTON.

AGAIN, I MENTIONED THERE WILL BE A TRADE TEAM FROM VIETNAM HERE IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK.

I EXPECT THAT VIETNAMESE TRADE TEAM IN THE U. S. TRADE TEAM LED BY TREASURE AND COMMERCE WILL GET DOWN TO BRASS TACKS QUITE QUICKLY.

AGAIN, IT IS THAT ORGANIZATION, PROBABLY THAT AGGRESSIVENESS, THAT IS THE BIGGEST SURPRISE TO OUR VIETNAMESE FRIENDS AND THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FROM OUR FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

>> AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

WHAT AN HONOR TO BE HERE.

> >> FROM MAN'S BEST FRIEND A COMRADE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, THIS BELGIAN SHEPHERD IS ONE OF THE DOGS TRAINING NEAR UKRAINE'S FRONT LINE AND HERE NEAR SARAJEVO ON THIS GRASSY FIELD THEY ARE TAUGHT TO SNIFF OUT EXPLOSIVES AHEAD OF THEIR MISSION.

RUSSIA'S INVASION HAS LEFT ONE THIRD OF UKRAINE HAZARDOUS BECAUSE OF THOSE MINDS AND SOME OF THESE COLLEAGUES ARE THERE DIVIDING LIFE-SAVING ASSISTANCE AND THAT THE TRAINER SAYS, ONE LIFE FOUND AND ONE MINE FOUND ONE LIFE SAVED.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT .

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS ON OUR SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.