- Coming up on "Inspire", Kansas will cast their vote very soon on the abortion amendment for the Kansas constitution.

A discussion on the impact of a yes or no vote on women in Kansas.

Stay with us.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] "Inspire" is sponsored by Kansas Furniture Mart using furniture to inspire conversation and by the Blanche Bryden Foundation.

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to "Inspire."

It's an honor and a privilege to be here with my "Inspire" cohost and my adopted sisters.

We have Amber, we have Amy and we have Betty Lou, and we have you here today, too.

Thank you for joining us.

Today, we're going to talk about a very important issue that's impacting women in Kansas.

- Many of us have heard of the recent Supreme court reversal of Roe versus Wade.

And I'm not sure about all of you, but it's getting a little hard to miss the signs while driving around.

Vote yes, Value Them Both, vote no, protect our rights.

What does this all mean?

- That's why we're all here today.

We're going to discuss the Roe versus Wade reversal by the Supreme court and the impact of a yes or no vote for the abortion amendment in Kansas.

Here to talk about the impact on our fellow sisters, our friends and women across the nation is Dr. Sharon Sullivan, a professor and theater department chair for Washburn University, who is also professor of women and gender studies.

And she has a specialty focus on women's studies and human trafficking, and is a welcome and wonderful retreat guest here on "Inspire."

Dr. Sullivan, thank you so much for being here.

- Welcome back.

- Thank you.

Thank you for inviting me, thank you.

- Dr. Sullivan with with the difference between, because the first ones I honestly, the most I saw was Value Them Both and I'm thinking, okay, well, the language of that is, well, sure we wanna Value Them Both.

And then, but then I'm thinking, is that really what they mean?

Or the vote no, okay, so what does that mean?

Could you please explain the two different stances?

- Yeah, that's a great question because I think that's very confusing and the language itself is really confusing and I've been studying for a while and every morning I would wake up and I'd be like, should I vote yes or should I vote no, because I'm so confused, right?

Right.

- So a yes vote means that women in Kansas don't have a right to abortion.

They don't have any rights around reproductive health that the politicians in our state can decide.

Now a no vote means no, keep the constitution as it is.

So my little memory is no change means keeping the right, no change to the constitution.

- Okay.

- So in 20, what what's happened is in 2019, the Kansas Supreme Court said that women have a basic right to privacy and that includes abortion.

And now what's happening is the legislature has put it on the August ballot to say, yes, women have no right to bodily autonomy.

They have no right to abortion.

And the legislators can decide what the laws should be around abortion specifically, but other reproductive rights as well, a no vote means leave the constitution as it is.

Meaning women have a right to an abortion through privacy laws of the constitution and it doesn't prevent anyone.

It doesn't prevent other laws around abortion.

It just means that that's a basic right.

- And currently in Kansas, abortion is heavily regulated.

- Heavily.

- And so, there is some concern that if we were to make the move to remove what the Kansas constitution currently says, then the question then becomes, what could happen, right?

- Right, so I suppose that is a great segue to the next question.

What could happen if this becomes no longer a right in the state of Kansas?

- Well, I think it's fair to explain also what Roe V. Wade was.

Roe V. Wade was decided in what, 1972.

- [Amber] Three.

- '73.

And it basically said that the US constitution has the right to privacy for women to make reproductive choices.

And that includes the right to abortion.

So no, the US constitution does not say women can have abortions.

It says women have the right to privacy.

That includes the right to have an abortion.

That's kind of what the Kansas constitution now says.

'Cause recently the Supreme court overturned Roe V. Wade saying that it's not a federally protected right in the constitution and that's what they're saying, which means that the states get to decide and our state decided that the state constitution has that protective right in it.

And the question then in August is, does it, or does it not.

- Sure and if the question is answered by voters to say, no, there is not a right.

There's a mechanism in the amendment that that is something we really need to talk about.

And that is that there is language in this proposal that says, you now give this right to your legislators to make decisions about the future of reproductive health in the state of Kansas.

And I think that's where we really need to dig into the heart of the discussion, because what is the future of healthcare for women in the state of Kansas if we no longer have this right to healthcare, which is abortion, what does the future look like for women in Kansas?

- And there are other implications that go along with that, that we need to discuss as well.

So please walk us through that, 'cause it's very confusing to a lot of us who aren't that educated on the topic.

- So if our legislators, our politicians are making laws, they are also defining medical terms.

And one of the problems is that those terms aren't always correct, right?

- What qualifies our citizen legislators to be making decisions based on medical care or science?

- Nothing.

- Okay.

- There's nothing to legislate or there's nothing required for a legislator.

There's no education required before they make decisions about any of these laws.

So one of the things we see for example is some legislators, not just in Kansas, but across the United States redefining medical terms, right?

- Based on what, based on medical science or based on... - Based on their own beliefs.

- Okay.

- Not based on science.

So for example, one of the things that we've seen is this idea of the beginning of life is the beginning of fertilization.

Now science says a sperm and an egg don't meet and instantly make a baby, right?

But they're saying, some legislators are saying, well, once that egg is fertilized, you're pregnant, but that's not what the medical science says at all.

We also have some legislators across the country and in Kansas saying things like birth control is a form of abortion.

And so they want to outlaw birth control.

- Which is also not medically accurate, correct?

- Which is not medically accurate.

Right, so, birth control can do a lot of different things.

It can prevent implantation, it can prevent fertilization.

- Regulate a woman's cycle.

- Absolutely.

- And down on severe cramps, migraines, a myriad of other health issues associated with having a period that don't result in pregnancy.

- Right.

- And so taking that medication, doesn't always, isn't always an individual's choice regarding not getting pregnant.

- Sure.

- It can be used for a lot of things, but even if it is being used to not get pregnant.

- Sure.

- Right, like there's a lot of different things.

And yet some legislators, some politicians are trying to define birth control as a form of abortion because it's preventing a woman from getting pregnant.

- So there seems to be a lot of this issue that revolves around the way we talk about this issue.

So thinking about sort of our two major players in this campaign for this amendment, we've got Value Them Both, and we've got Kansans for Constitutional Freedom.

So let's dig into sort of the rhetoric or the way that these people are discussing these sides of the issue.

So what are we seeing coming out of both sides of this issue that could potentially be problematic for voters who are trying to make a decision about this?

- Well, one of the problems that I see and let me talk about Value Them Both website first, 'cause I've looked at that quite a bit.

One of the problems I see is that some of the information is misleading.

So one of the examples is that we'll have all these, well become a destination, abortion destination.

- I've seen commercials about that already.

- Sure, sure.

- Yeah.

- Why would be we become an abortion destination?

Because the states around us have banned abortion.

And so desperate women take desperate chances and desperate women take the risk of going to another state.

And of course, when we think about that, I mean, all what we're talking about is primarily middle class and upper class women who can afford to make that trip, who can afford to take the time off, who can afford to meet the regulations requiring a 24 hour wait, which Kansas has, right?

- And statistically speaking, the women we're talking about are middle class, white married women who have already had one child.

- [Dr. Sharon] Yes, that's correct.

- And I think that's, because I think that we are diving into some scary territory when we make assumptions about who we think is getting abortion care.

When we look at the actual numbers on this, it's not who, it's not this picture that we're being presented.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- And you touched on the monetization of it too because they keep saying, oh, well, Kansas just wants to get all this money, but that's not true either.

- No, it's really not.

One of the terminology used on the Value Them Both website that I really object to is the term, the abortion industry.

The implication is that, that these folks are doing this for profit.

I mean, when we think about an industry it's for profit, when really what they're doing is healthcare for women, right?

- I think we also, the term industry calls to mind this sort of like churning out of a product at a high rate.

Yes.

- And that's not what is happening.

We've seen steadily at the national level, abortion rates have been on a decline.

They did rise a bit under the Trump administration, which is a whole nother discussion that we could have at some point.

Yes.

- But the fact of the matter is, is that these numbers have been steadily on the decline.

And so I suppose my concern then becomes, are our legislators actually concerned about the number of abortions that are, or are not taking place or are they concerned about just having this law on the books?

- Well, we are gonna take a really short break and we'll back very soon to continue this discussion.

(upbeat music) And we are back.

The ladies on the last segment, we were talking about how this is presented, the language that is used and the information that is provided and why that information.

Some of it is maybe we should trust it, maybe we should not trust it.

So one of the supporters of the vote no is the Kansas.

Ah, I wrote this down, Kansans for Constitutional Freedom.

So if you look at their website, what types of things are they saying, Sharon, do you know that we should be aware of?

- I think one of the misconceptions is that a, if this law is enacted and that this amendment, that abortion will be automatically, immediately banned in Kansas and that's not true.

The laws we have will be in effect until new laws are created.

However, I will say that just this last March, there was a bill presented to the legislature that was a full ban, complete ban on any kind of abortion with no exceptions that failed in committee.

But I don't, in Kansas, I see these things being brought up over and over and over again.

And with the fall of Roe V. Wade, I would expect to see it again, coming up in the legislature.

- So what some of the laws we have now on the books in Kansas?

- Sure, there's a lot of regulations for abortion clinics.

Everything from the size of the font that they can use on documents to women are required to have an ultrasound before they're allowed to have an abortion.

And they're offered the opportunity to see that ultrasound.

- Parental consent.

- Parental consent already exists.

- Heavy regulation on public funding, which is a misnomer because yeah, under federal regulation, you can't use public money for abortions.

In the state of Kansas since 2013, there have been four abortions that were conducted because the life of the mother was threatened.

Those were funded, partially using taxpayer money, but it was $454 total, which equates to less than a penny per taxpayer to save the lives of four women.

So there are already heavy regulations in place, which is problematic on the value than both website because they keep alluding to the fact not alluding their outright saying that public money is gonna be used for this.

It's just not legal.

- And it's not covered in the, most insurance policy don't cover it.

- That's right.

- Affordable Care Act doesn't cover it.

Public Employee Insurance Act, they don't cover it.

- That's right.

- I think you have to get a writer for that if you have private insurance.

- That's right.

- And I've never met anyone who has done that.

- That's an extra cost, yeah.

- But what's so scary about it is because they make it sound like it's all inclusive.

When you just point out it's less than a penny, a person.

And it was only in four instances.

- And again, to save the life of the mother.

- Right, and we just really need to, as voters be sure that we flesh everything out and don't just take somebody else's word for it.

- Absolutely, and talk about what would happen in terms of the health of the life of the mother or victims of rape, incest.

Talk about that as it relates to both of these.

- So right now, as I mentioned, there are some exceptions in some states like the life of the mother, rape, incest, those types of things, but it's not consistent between states.

One of the things, our neighbors, Missouri, I just read yesterday, hospital lawyers are telling doctors that if they have someone, a woman come in with an ectopic pregnancy, don't operate on her until it's life threatening.

- Wow.

- Because of the trigger law, that was enacted when Roe V. Wade was banned, making any kind of abortion illegal in Missouri.

And so, and except if the life of the mother is threatened.

- The problem with the life of the mother language though, is that we have no universal standard for what life of the mother means, which means it's highly subjective.

So if you go to your medical professional and you are pregnant and they say, well, there's a 50% chance this pregnancy's gonna kill you.

There's nothing that says, well, that's enough of a percentage to ensure that you have a right to an abortion.

- Yes.

- And so we're in really tricky territory there when we don't even have the basic understanding of what we all accept to be, what is really the threat to the life of the mother?

Is it a 20% chance that the pregnancy could kill you?

Is it an 80% chance?

We have no way at this point, because the language hasn't been codified in statute.

- Yeah and this is one of the reasons, I realize this might be a pipe dream at this point, but I really would like to see abortion reproduction, reproductive rights moved out of the criminal code and be treated as healthcare, right?

Like this should be between you and your doctor and your God.

- Because there is a criminalization aspect to these laws we've been.

- Yes and we've seen that in state after state, after state, we can talk about Texas, right?

Who has this vigilante law.

- It's a bounty.

- A bounty.

Whereas if I see you taking someone to get an abortion, I can turn you in and get money for that, right?

- That language.

- Oh my goodness.

- Yeah, that language is repeated in the Oklahoma legislation that says that if you are caught aiding or abetting, and again, there's no definition as to what aiding and abetting means.

If you are found guilty of aiding and abetting, then you are in criminal trouble.

- Okay, question.

So this obviously impacts women greatly.

I mean like greatly.

- Sure.

- Where are the guys in this?

Where, I mean a woman doesn't get pregnant on her own.

- Amen.

- So are there any laws that are saying, that if a guy impregnates a woman and she doesn't wanna get pregnant, he gets in trouble.

I mean, how does that work?

- I mean, you've got, you have laws in states about child support and things like that.

But that also involves a lengthy and expensive, oftentimes legal process that the people that are gonna be harmed if abortion is not viewed as healthcare, then those are the exact people who don't have the resources to engage in a lengthy, scary, oftentimes legal battle just to get basic support.

And I think traditionally, when we look at laws about reproductive health and frankly, decisions about people making their own individual choices, it disproportionately impacts women as compared to their male counterparts.

- You talked earlier about those who could afford it.

Let's delve in a little bit more to those who cannot afford it, what's happening to them?

- Well, I think we'll continue to, I think we'll see an increase in women and children in poverty.

Kansas already has one in six kids going hungry.

I think that number will increase.

If one in four women are forced to carry a child that they don't want, we're talking about a large percentage of children who don't have access to a healthy family, who are unwanted.

So what does that mean for the foster care system that's already struggling?

- [Anne] Or abuse rates.

- Or abuse rates.

- Which is already, I think last year alone, there were 59,000 cases filed with Child Protective Services in the state of Kansas, 59,000 in a year.

- Right and when we talk about, one of the things I hear a lot is, oh, well, you can just put 'em up for adoption.

There's hundreds of 400,000 kids in the nation up for adoption who are not adopted, right?

And we're paying for those kids as we should, but that number's not going to decrease if we... - Or if you have people who don't have adequate prenatal healthcare, you may be looking at a situation where now you're inundating the public schools who already have a lack of special needs funding.

I mean, this is just the domino effect here feels almost endless, particularly for women and children.

- Yes.

- Oh my gosh, that just went back.

That just made me think, okay.

A penny, a person for the legal abortion versus.

- Over a 20 year period of time.

- Yeah, versus how much it's gonna cost the taxpayer for all the healthcare, everything else, oh my gosh.

- Social service.

- And where are we gonna get additional resources, would be my question.

That's a great question.

And I think, I think one of the points you made is the cost of vetting this law.

Could you say something more about that?

I think you research that.

- So I, yeah.

So I think obviously if this amendment passes and that women in this state are no longer legally allowed to access abortion, it's inevitably gonna cause lawsuits.

And I think what the voters really need to understand is that they pay for those lawsuits.

And when we look at states like Texas, they're in the millions and millions of dollars that taxpayers are footing the bill for those lawsuits challenging their abortion laws.

So I think if people are truly concerned about this from an economic taxpayer perspective, then they need to think about these lawsuits that are inevitable, right?

There is no way that organizations are not going to challenge this in a court of law.

And taxpayers will foot that bill.

- Oh my gosh, okay, you guys, we have to take another short break, but do stay with us.

We'll be back to wrap up our discussion on the Roe versus Wade reversal and the upcoming abortion amendment vote.

That's where you come in.

(upbeat music) We are back.

Thank you for staying with us.

We need you to vote, vote what you think, but vote with intelligence, vote with information.

Dr. Sullivan, if you could kind of please go back on the signage, Value Them Both vote no, it's kind of like yes means no, no means yes, please explain.

- Yes, that's right.

And that is part of the confusing language.

So no means no change to the constitution, Kansas constitution, which means yes, we have a right to abortion.

- Okay.

- Okay, so no means no change.

- Okay.

- Yes means yes, change the constitution.

Yes give politicians the right to make laws around reproductive health.

So yes, means change the constitution.

No means.

- Keep it as it is.

- Keep it as it is.

- Okay.

- No change.

- Right.

- So I think something that is gonna be difficult to talk about, but I think that we have to, because when I think about this issue, I'm not interested in sharing my personal viewpoint right now, but I am interested in thinking about how are people making this decision?

And I know so many people are making this decision based on gut instinct or how they were raised or what religion they follow, all these deeply personal things.

And I understand that in some cases, those gut instincts supersede our ability to look at hard facts.

But one hard fact we need to face is that if this amendment passes and people in this state do not have a right to abortion healthcare, then we are really looking at children who will be raped and telling them, you now are going to have a baby.

And I think that's something that again is very difficult to address, but we are naive if we don't.

And there are further repercussions things that we don't wanna think about, things we don't wanna talk about or think about children experiencing.

But when we're looking at other states like Ohio, where a judge looked a 10 year old in the eye and said, "I'm sorry, you're having this baby."

- And for a 10 year old having to have a baby or even a mature woman who is raped and is in an unwanted pregnancy, it was a rape situation where it was really awful, traumatic experience.

And now they might be in a situation to have to co-parent with their rapist.

- Trauma, compounding trauma.

- I mean, that's for the next 18 years, the guy who raped you now you have this beautiful child, but the guy who raped you is, I mean, this is, I mean, these are types of things that can happen.

Not saying they will happen, but we've seen it happen in other states.

And so, these are types of things that we have to look at.

And I love you said earlier, these are just ugly truths.

We don't like to think about these things, unicorns and rainbows way better, way better.

- Way better.

- But this is.

- Mental health issues, talk about that.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

But if we're going to be asked to make this kind of decision, I think it's contingent upon people to be open about what that really means.

And people that want to veil the true intent of what will happen in this state are underestimating the ability of voters to make a sound decision for themselves.

- I just think we all need to be educated.

- That's right.

- When you go to the poll, you really do need to know how everything is played out.

- Yeah.

- The pros and the cons, and then be able to use your intelligent mind to go and put down what you feel and what you think and not have somebody dictate that to you.

Because a lot of times we're getting a lot of noise from a lot of different places.

- That's right.

- Check the language, what does it mean?

- And you are not just voting for yourself.

You are voting for anyone with a uterus.

- Yes.

- Correct, correct.

- And I also just wanna add in there that we talk about these exceptions and these awful things, but who among us, hasn't had sleepy early morning sex without protection, who hasn't had that extra drink?

When did children become punishment for sex?

Sex is a natural human need, desire.

There's nothing wrong with it.

And yet you're basically saying you can't have sex unless you wanna reproduce, right?

- And where is the statute that's going to dictate that for men?

- Excellent question.

- Oh, well, let's not go there at this point.

- I'm just saying, if this is how we wanna view if you're viewing this as a punishment, this is a one-sided punishment.

- That's right.

- The sexist.

- Yes, I agree.

- Argument agreed.

- Very smart.

- So let's go over it just one more time as we leave.

I just wanna think, because when you see that nice and signed Value Them Both, that means you're gonna change the Kansas constitution.

You are taking healthcare away from women and their doctors.

And in no means.

- No means no change to the constitution, meaning that women have a right to reproductive healthcare, including abortion.

- But this does not mean that we are going to become the wild west of abortion.

No, because Kansas has over 10 separate individual regulations on abortion and how abortions can be carried out and what has to happen before an abortion can take place.

So I do wanna be clear that this does not mean that this becomes some kind of unregulated free for all in this state.

- Absolutely agree, the regulations stay in place and the constitution doesn't prevent additional regulation.

- That's right.

Right, if we keep that in our constitution.

- There's so much more that could be said, but that's all the time that we have for today.

If you'd like to watch this program again, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

- And if you're so inspired to learn more about Dr. Sullivan, or to find out what's coming up on a future show, be sure to visit our website, www.ktwu.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring you and inspiring research and an educated vote on KTWU, thank you for watching.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] "Inspire" is sponsored by Kansas Furniture Mart using furniture to inspire conversation and by the Blanche Bryden Foundation.